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Author Topic: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes  (Read 171 times)

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Offline bweaver

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Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« on: August 06, 2018, 03:28:46 pm »
It is no secret that many of us including myself at TEMAC have with a few exceptions experienced difficulties trying to set up both wireless and wired buddy box arrangements when new aircraft with safe technology arrive at the field. The main difficulty experienced, involves being able to the student's slave transmitter operate in the 'expert mode' as opposed to the 'beginner' or 'intermediate mode'. 

TEMAC's flight instruction program encourages students "to understand their radio equipment, programing features, etc., in order to reduce the time they spend on the ground, making adjustments and program changes".  We encourage students to participate fully in understanding the process of binding their plane to a Master transmitter and then binding wirelessly or connecting with a cable to another transmitter, for use as the student's Slave for flight training purposes.

In order for a student to obtain their wings at TEMAC, students must be able to demonstrate consistently their ability to fly and control their aircraft with the 'safe' technology turned off, while flying fully in the 'expert mode'.

Athol Cohen has found a number of links (see below) containing useful information that should be helpful in reducing these difficulties from occurring in the future. Thanks Athol.



Offline bweaver

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2018, 03:41:00 pm »
I have taken screen grabs of the other PDFS because the PDF files are too large for linking to this post.

Offline bweaver

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Offline Frank v B

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2018, 04:26:35 pm »
Bruce,

re:your comment  "In order for a student to obtain their wings at TEMAC, students must be able to demonstrate consistently their ability to fly and control their aircraft with the 'safe' technology turned off, while flying fully in the 'expert mode'. "

I am with you 100%.  Our job as instructors is to teach people to fly safely, not how to manage a "safe" system.... that is far from it.

Only one problem though, re you comment "encourage students to participate fully in understanding the process of binding their plane to a Master transmitter and then binding wirelessly or connecting with a cable to another transmitter, for use as the student's Slave for flight training purposes."  If I don't (want to) understand how to bind two transmitters wirelessly does that mean you will take away my flight privileges??  Make my day!! ;)

Let it be known that I hate the wirelessly bound buddy boxes.  As an instructor I fly along with the student.  The second I touch the sticks I take over.  That is wrong.  Those poor students who have experienced a dive know I take over about 20' from the ground.  Can't do that when I can't fly along on my transmitter.

Frank

"Never trade luck for skill"

Offline bweaver

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2018, 04:41:26 pm »
@Frank v B Re:   Only one problem though, re you comment "encourage students to participate fully in understanding the process of binding their plane to a Master transmitter and then binding wirelessly or connecting with a cable to another transmitter, for use as the student's Slave for flight training purposes."  If I don't (want to) understand how to bind two transmitters wirelessly does that mean you will take away my flight privileges??  Make my day!! ;)

Frank, we would never take your privileges away.  If you would please re-read the quote from the student's manual, (that part with these things around it " - ", then it will become clear to you that I was encouraging 'students' to participate...  It was written in this manner to exclude...

I know what it is like to try to teach an old dog new tricks - speaking as one old dog to another.  I also know how difficult it is for an old dog to try and learn a new trick.  ;D

Offline bweaver

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 11:43:16 am »
The following information was sent to me in a PM from Oscar.  I have taken the liberty of reproducing the PM and placing it in this post because the information is so useful.   Thanks so much Oscar, you are our ‘GO TO GUY’ for assistance in these matters.   It is always so much appreciated!

“The information provided in the post is an excellent resource for the student.  Please note that the Apprentice, SAFE and AS3X are always ON regardless of which mode (Beginner / Intermediate / Advanced).  What we want is to make sure the student is in the Advanced mode which has no limitation on roll and pitch (just like other planes). 

RE: AS3X - It corrects for movements of the plane not input by the T/X. i.e., if a gust of wind (e.g., crosswind) causes the plane to turn, this turn without TX input is detected and the AS3X moves the rudder to correct (or ailerons, or elevator as required).

AS3X does not know what is horizontal and will let you nose dive straight into the ground just like any plane.

SAFE in Beginner / Intermediate / PANIC recovery modes knows the horizontal (like an old fashion level in electronics). In Beginner and Intermediate modes, the SAFE system detects an angle from horizontal and moves the control surfaces accordingly to bring you within the allowed angle from horizontal (intermediate allows for larger angles than beginner). The advance mode has no limit on the angle.

This is the reason why the SAFE system needs to calibrate when the BEC is switched on (in the Apprentice, that's when we push the ON switch). It is essential for the airplane to be stationary during this calibration. The SAFE has the accelerometers, so it doesn’t matter whether it’s upside down when plugging the battery (Apprentice battery hatch is at the bottom).  But that being said, it’s a good practice to be level.

The Panic switch uses the SAFE system to bring the plane to straight flight with a slight climb.

The main reason why we still have the limitation in roll and pitch even in 'Advance mode' is that the AUX1 is not reversed (as per notation in the manual).  AUX1 is the PANIC recovery as part of the SAFE function.  If it's not set to reverse, it means PANIC recovery is always ON which causes the plane to self-level, limit roll and pitch, just like in 'Beginner Mode.'  The other common problem is when the bind/trainer/panic function is on the same button.  If it's not set up correctly, when the instructor presses the trainer button so the student has the control, it also enabled the PANIC recovery, which causes the student to have limited roll/pitch angle.  (Depends on which radio, this can be resolves by assigning the PANIC recovery to another button, like Switch A)

The one Athol posted is the later version of SAFE R/X.  The R/X is called 'SAFE Select' and can turn off SAFE completely (AS3X is still enabled even when SAFE is disarmed).  What that does is disable the SAFE function on 'PANIC recovery' and the ability to select 'Beginner mode' and 'Advanced mode.'  Side note: HH realized most of the flyers don't read the manual on setting up the SAFE properly.  So they came up with SAFE Select so the flyer can disarm the PANIC recovery and the Beginner mode function. 

Regarding Frank’s comment – “Let it be known that I hate the wirelessly bound buddy boxes.  As an instructor I fly along with the student.  The second I touch the sticks I take over.  That is wrong.  Those poor students who have experienced a dive know I take over about 20' from the ground.  Can't do that when I can't fly along on my transmitter.”

The Master transmitter can be programmed so it acts just like the WIRED connection (instructor has to release the trainer button to take control).  I programmed having the Master to take control by moving any stick.  I thought moving the stick to take control would be more convenient. (Also, programming in this manner solves the issue with having the PANIC / Trainer / Bind in one button).  I didn't realize this caused the issue for Frank.  My apologies to Frank for having made this assumption. “ (Bruce’s comment – Frank will get over it.)

Offline bweaver

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2018, 06:26:54 pm »
I received another valuable tidbit from @Oscar today. I thought I would pass it along as well.  Thanks again Oscar.

"BTW, here is one more thing of importance.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=35952685&postcount=41514

In summary - One reason why Wireless is the prefer method.  In the thread - Andy, is the Spektrum specialist for all DX radio, from Horizon Hobby."


Offline Frank v B

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2018, 09:03:50 pm »
Bruce,

re: "I also know how difficult it is for an old dog to try and learn a new trick.  ;D"

Frank (the flip-phone guy)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 09:15:39 pm by Frank v B »
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Offline Wingnutz

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2018, 07:09:46 am »
How can anything which takes eight posts to explain possibly be SAFE, especially for a beginner, the target customer?
Has anyone actually had SAFE save a model?
DOWN WITH GRAVITY!

Offline Oscar

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2018, 08:46:44 am »
I did.  When I learnt how to fly my Apprentice with float (float flying), I enabled Beginner mode for take off and landing.  It saves Rob to rescue my plane.

And while learning knife edge or inverted, the PANIC recovery save my plane numerous times.


Offline bweaver

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2018, 08:50:34 am »
OH? And in all those instances I thought it was your improved flying SKILLS!  ::)

Offline Oscar

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2018, 09:09:47 am »
See! Even CFI thinks I fly well.   :P

Being said, SAFE cannot recover from STALL.  And this is where you learn from the instructor on how to recover from STALL. 


Offline Wingnutz

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2018, 09:28:14 am »
See! Even CFI thinks I fly well.   :P

Being said, SAFE cannot recover from STALL.  And this is where you learn from the instructor on how to recover from STALL.
Oscar, besides being a pretty good, okay, great pilot you're a very capable techie when it comes to RC. I'm not confident the average beginner could operate SAFE effectively...you obviously can.
So, if SAFE needs Oscar or an instructor, why not just use the buddy box?
DOWN WITH GRAVITY!

Offline bweaver

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Re: Turning Safe 'on' and 'off' for flight training purposes
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2018, 09:58:26 am »
The Apprentice is a great training plane and suitable for more advanced flying once the student has achieved their wings and wishes to enhance their flying skills.

Here are a couple of videos made by Horizon Hobby illustrating the model and its Safe technology. 





Further, regarding Bill's inquiry "Has anyone actually had SAFE save a model?"  Oscar has illustrated its effectiveness.

On the other hand, I am also aware of a student loosing his Apprentice when it flew so well with Safe, it flew away.  Bye, bye Apprentice.  I wasn't there, but I know for a fact that it happened at TEMAC.  This incident didn't stop the student from purchasing another one though.