Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club Forum

Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club (TEMAC) => Building / Construction => Topic started by: bweaver on August 03, 2018, 07:07:54 PM

Title: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 03, 2018, 07:07:54 PM
Hey @vicwhit , remind me why I am doing this?  I got the drill and hole maker out and went to town.  While, not perfect, I think it will do... Remind me again Vic, why am I doing this?

Refer to the pictures below:
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: vicwhit on August 03, 2018, 07:14:16 PM
Don't know. Copying is a very high form of flattery, I guess. And you are so very flattering.

Strength, durability, performance all come into play. Just solve the motor coming off issue while you're at it. Then I can flatter you. 😉
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: Frank v B on August 03, 2018, 08:59:18 PM
Simon, your foam slayer prop will have fun with this Swiss cheese Warwing. ;D

Frank
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: sihinch on August 03, 2018, 09:28:43 PM
I was actually think we could strain spaghetti with it!  ;D

But I might copy it too!!!  :D
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 04, 2018, 11:30:13 PM
Saved them just in case I change my mind.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 05, 2018, 08:53:52 AM
@vicwhit Re: Strength, durability, performance all come into play. Just solve the motor coming off issue while you're at it.

One of the drawbacks we haven't considered is that during an aerial entanglement, the pleasure of seeing shredded foam float down to the ground will cease to occur when it involves 2 Warwings of this nature.  This could be considered a disappointment for some (including me). 

I am also going to have a crack at solving the 'motor coming off issue' as well.  The trusty old orange crates will come into play.  After applying the laminate to the fuselage and before installing the triangular motor mount stock, I am going to install plywood reinforcing not just on one side, but on both sides of the front portion of the fuselage.  (Each piece of plywood will be lightened using the same hole boring technique that was used on the foam.)

BACK THE BUILD:

Before applying the reinforcing plastic laminate, I got out the Dollar Store paint and applied MY COLOUR SCHEME to the Warwing. This time I am using a foam brush (isn't that fitting?) to apply the paint. 

I always use red wing tips on the top side of the plane along with a black cockpit canopy.  This helps for orientation purposes and I have a better chance of routinely identifying my plane while flying in heavy traffic and to avoid trying to fly someone else's plane by mistake.  (This has been known to happen, without success, might I add.)

Now I am going to go look for that heavy warm thing that Katie used to use to remove wrinkles from fabric clothing and other textiles.  (Boy, I haven't seen that thing in a long time!  I hope it is still around.)

Refer to the photos below.


Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: vicwhit on August 05, 2018, 09:02:00 AM
True. Those floating foamy bits are a crowd-pleaser.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 06, 2018, 10:05:08 PM
I found the heavy heaty thing that Kate used to use.  I dusted it off, plugged it in, put on an apron and it readily laminated the wing and fuselage without any problems.   

The wing was laminated with a heavier grade of plastic laminate, and the fuselage was laminated with a thinner laminate.  I think the amount of strength built into the wing is OVER-KILL and the strength of the fuselage is about right.  Next time I will use the lighter laminate for both purposes.

The laminate was overturned on all edges of the wing.  The elevons were separately laminated top and bottom to allow for free movement of the hinges. The bottom of the fuselage remains exposed foam.

I have tested the functionality of the Gorilla glue for attaching the foam to laminate and find that it isn't worth a s--t.

For this reason, I plan on pre-drilling holes in the laminate to allow using Gorilla glue to attach the fuselage to the wing and for the reinforcement ply panels and motor mount pieces.   The drilled holes in the laminate will expose the foam underneath so that the glue will effectively be able to bind foam to foam and foam to wood.

So far I think the Warwing is going to be indestructible, as Vic's has already demonstrated, but with plywood reinforcing for the motor mount.   I am not going to use the plywood on both sides of the fuselage as previously indicated.  I am now going to use plywood on one side of the fuselage only and apply plywood reinforcing to the opposite bottom foam skid after laminating it.  Then the quarter stock motor mount pieces will be cut and glued and the firewall attached.

Refer to the photos below.



Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: vicwhit on August 06, 2018, 10:27:33 PM
Gorilla loses to laminate. So true. There is no surface "fuzz" on the laminate for the glue to hold onto.
I recommend cutting a slot in the top and bottom surfaces of the wing wide enough for the fuselage pieces. You will have a foam to foam surface for the gorilla glue to grab. Cut out any ooze and the you can iron in a 1 inch strips to cover the joints. That will reduce side strike vulnerability.

Oh, and laminate the bottom fuselage too. It slides on the grass nicely.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 08, 2018, 07:16:11 AM
BTW, this type of laminate does not stick well to house paint (house paint takes years to fully dry). I made that mistake on a few wings.
If you have already painted the foam, you may want to spray 3M77, let it dry and then apply the laminate, it will definitely help.
For my EPP wings (chemical resistant) I learned that the strongest laminate bond is done by first applying 3m90, letting it dry, spray painting it, then applying the laminate. It makes it very difficult to peel off.
Not sure if this will work with the blue foam, but the 3M77 will definitely work and help stick. 3M90 is a much stronger glue, harder to find in stores, not sure how it reacts to blue foam but I can try it and let you know.
Stephan
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 08, 2018, 08:35:14 AM
Thanks @Crazyflyer (Stephan) for your suggestions.   

I use 3m medical tape for the elevon hinges.  I think that is enough quality for any Warwing I build.  The dollar store paint adheres very well to the blue foam and the laminate appears to be holding to the paint as well.  Time and a few rough challenges will tell how reliable the laminate bond is.

Refer to the latest photo below.  Before gluing the fuselage to the wing. I drilled tons of holes (as if that's possible) in the laminate on the wing and as previously mentioned the bottom of the fuselage was not laminated.  I similarly drilled more holes in the laminate where the plywood reinforcing is attached.  I will do the same with the laminate where the wooden triangular motor mounting stock attaches as well.  I think this will make a fantastic bond resulting from the Gorilla glue expanding into the holes and creeping under the laminate beside the holes.

I hope to have the Warwing ready for a maiden pre-student night later today.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 08, 2018, 04:28:55 PM
Finished!  Ready to maiden.

The first photo depicts what I mean by a ton of holes.

The second photo depicts the precision tools used to finish this aircraft.  (Aren't you glad you have some Richard?)

The last picture reflects the finished product.  I simply transferred all the electronics from what was left of Warwing 1 (Simon's Revenge) to the new airframe.

Pretty ugly huh? But how will it perform?

Time and a few challenges will tell.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: Frank v B on August 08, 2018, 10:25:17 PM
It flew!! I saw it.  It needs some battle scars.... quickly.  Simon, go get him! :)


Frank
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 08, 2018, 10:52:29 PM
Yes, it did fly very well with only the need for some minor right trim.  (I might of missed drilling a hole or two on the left side, and the battery is mounted on the left as well.  I mounted the battery higher on the fuselage than directly on the wing.  I might move it down and see if that makes a difference.

Where was your Warwing Simon?
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: sihinch on August 11, 2018, 12:21:19 PM
After the success I had covering my first foam plane with "Towercote" I've followed through on my promise of copying this construction technique....

The deadly game of cat & mouse continues!  ;D
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: vicwhit on August 11, 2018, 01:06:45 PM
Where are the holes?

Bruce and I are out practicing now, getting ready for you.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 11, 2018, 05:42:33 PM
@sihinch, Re: "The deadly game of cat & mouse continues!  ;D"

And which one are you?   ???
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 14, 2018, 03:19:28 PM
@vicwhit and I had a combat dual this morning resulting in the loud "THUD" of a mid-air collision, followed by the hushed silence of the crowd and the rapid pitter-patter thumping of my heart.  But to Vic's and my amazement and to the crowds disappointment, there was no resultant blue foam cascading/raining to the ground as normally experienced after hearing that familiar 'THUD'.  There were only two Warwings bouncing off each other, recovering to fly on further into battle, which resulted in a draw. (No damage to either craft.)

Then @electroflyer arrived at the field as Vic and I had just finished.  He was still wiping the sleep from his eyes.  Glenn was easily encouraged to get into another challenge with Vic and I.  This time I took Glenn's streamer, only to result in my motor starting to choke out with the tangle of ribbon slowing it down.  A few 'ups' and 'downs' on the throttle stick cleared the streamer from the motor, allowing it to power up again, along with cheers from crowd. The challenge continued resulting in nothing else happening other than a few close calls and Vic's ditch into the beans.  So sad, too bad.

I can't wait for the Funfly ...  Get your Warwings ready...  Practice if you think it will help...
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: Canuke on August 14, 2018, 05:17:53 PM
Sorry guys I agree with an earlier post by Bruce. The current warwings with the laminate are almost indestructible.  Bruce hit Vic's wing  today. No damage to Vic's plane. Both wings carried on and landed at the end of the time period. Wings have to be damaged and perhaps crash to have fun. I won't fly fly against them with my "normal" warwing and I won't laminate mine.  IMO have these laminate wings to fly around and have fun with and have normal (crashable) wings for combat.  I have 2 extra "normal" warwings for the clubs upcoming combat session which I will let anyone that doesn't have one borrow.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 14, 2018, 06:27:00 PM
Quote from: Canuke on August 14, 2018, 05:17:53 PM
Sorry guys I agree with an earlier post by Bruce. The current warwings with the laminate are almost indestructible.  Bruce hit Vic's wing  today. No damage to Vic's plane. Both wings carried on and landed at the end of the time period. Wings have to be damaged and perhaps crash to have fun. I won't fly fly against them with my "normal" warwing and I won't laminate mine.  IMO have these laminate wings to fly around and have fun with and have normal (crashable) wings for combat.  I have 2 extra "normal" warwings for the clubs upcoming combat session which I will let anyone that doesn't have one borrow.

@Canuke - Am I correct to interpret your statement to mean that if I have a regular non-laminated non-holey, flimsy as ...t blue foam Warwing, you will still fly combat against me and others because you like to see the blue foam pieces from your plane cascading down from the sky?  If yes, you are on. I will challenge you and anyone thinking like you using a 'normal' Warwing.  I will even fly it!

As we speak (type), I am building a standard Warwing to take up your challenge.  After our future combat session Jim, please don't have Sandra send me another nasty email when you bring your broken Warwing home in pieces again.  You know I am only trying to cut your ribbon, but sometimes things just happen.  ::)

Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 20, 2018, 08:29:12 AM
Laminated Warwing vs non-laminated Warwing.  Which is stronger?  The challenge when I started this experiment was to improve on @vicwhit 's Warwing modifications to not only make the airframe stronger but to make the motor mount stronger as he suggested. 

Is it possible to make the motor mount on the plane too strong?  You tell me.   ??? ??? ???

The photo below shows the Warwing's motor mount was unharmed, but the motor's mount was destroyed.  This damage resulted after Vic, @Crazyflyer and I had a combat session yesterday in preparation for the upcoming funfly.  Vic took an inch of ribbon off of Glenn's Warwing. (Good try) Shortly after this Vic's plane suffered fatigue and had to bow out of the challenge.  I was able to take half of Glenn's ribbon as the battle continued.  Not be out done, Glenn continued to pursue me until the unavoidable happened.  A mid-air with some shredded blue foam and motor falling from the sky (Glenn's) and my plane coming down as well with the motor hanging by the wires.  Glenn's Warwing is recoverable.  Mine is unscathed, except for having to remove the remnants of my motor from the airframes motor mount.  I hope I have another part for the motor.  (Refer to photos below) 


Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: Canuke on August 20, 2018, 01:28:10 PM
Bruce, your post just confirms my earlier comment. The laminated wings are too strong, when the motor mount is the weakest part of the warwing and your wing was "unscathed" after the impact it proves my point.
In combat all the wings should either be laminated (probably little or no damage when they hit) or all be unlaminated (normal?) and have them take damage when hit and perhaps crash. You know which side of the argument I like.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 20, 2018, 05:42:35 PM
@Canuke , there is going to be more than enough non-laminated Warwings available to challenge you once or twice, because that is all it will take to take your ribbon down in shards/shreds/confetti.  Just try to avoid the unavoidable.  I know you are excited. 

Please wait until the Funfly so that I can be one of the many wishing to challenge you and others with a non-laminated Warwing....

But eventually you will cave...  @vicwhit has tons of laminate made just for you.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: sihinch on August 20, 2018, 05:57:00 PM
My laminated wing breaks cover this week.... ;D
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: Canuke on August 20, 2018, 06:28:34 PM
No Problem. I still have lots of Vic's laminate but I will still still be in combat on the side of the "normal" wings. It will be interesting to see the results if we have 2 combats. One with laminate wings and one with normal wings. Bruce, are you going to combat with both types? As mentioned earlier, I have 3 normal warwings if anyone wants to fly one of them. If so let me know so I don't bring out all 3 if no-one wants to fly one.
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on August 20, 2018, 06:48:06 PM
Quote from: Canuke on August 20, 2018, 06:28:34 PM
No Problem. I still have lots of Vic's laminate but I will still still be in combat on the side of the "normal" wings. It will be interesting to see the results if we have 2 combats. One with laminate wings and one with normal wings. Bruce, are you going to combat with both types? As mentioned earlier, I have 3 normal warwings if anyone wants to fly one of them. If so let me know so I don't bring out all 3 if no-one wants to fly one.

@Canuke ,  I am working on a non-laminated version to fly just when you're flying.  I hope that will make you happy.

Regarding whether you should bring out more than one Warwing because you have three?  Knowing how well you do in our combat challenges, you will need more than one Warwing to fly if you want to participate in more than one heat (let alone lending one or two.)  ;D 

On the other hand Jim, I might wish to borrow one from you depending on how well I do or don't do with my non-laminated Warwing. ::)
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on September 24, 2018, 09:17:53 AM
Well a few more combat incidents revealed further strengths of the laminated Warwing and more failures of steel or aluminum motor components mounting components. (Laminated blue foam structure remains like a rock).

I have had a severe plunge into the ground.  The prop broke.  No other damage. 

Then in another incident Vic and I had a thunderous head on collision resulting in my Warwing crashing into the ground from at least 50 ft.  No damage to the Warwing structure other than having to replace the plywood firewall and repair the motors steel/aluminum mounting component.  (Refer to photos below.)
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: Canuke on September 24, 2018, 09:41:17 AM
Thanks Bruce. I'm not sure if you are bragging or complaining about the laminated warwings?
Title: Re: Holey Laminated Warwing Batman!
Post by: bweaver on September 27, 2018, 08:44:27 AM
Quote from: Canuke on September 24, 2018, 09:41:17 AM
Thanks Bruce. I'm not sure if you are bragging or complaining about the laminated warwings?

@Canuke - Jim, in response to your inquiry - actually it is a little of both.  (1) The laminated Warwing is the way to go. (2) I'm sorry that they give you grief.

Let's face it, for those who enjoy flying combat or racing with their Warwing, it's my opinion, while it doesn't take long to repair or build a Warwing replacement, it is somewhat inconvenient and discouraging. It is for this reason that I have taken to Vic's laminating practice.  Obviously laminating the Warwing strengthens the structure, reducing my repair and reconstruction time to a minimum.  Now I can spend more time selecting the color of my combat/racing streamers.

The other day I went into Lowes to purchase a number of 1/2 inch blue foam boards to get started on this winters kitting process.   

AAAAHHHHHH! they didn't have any!   ???