Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club Forum

Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club (TEMAC) => General Discussion => Topic started by: gmcnic on March 16, 2017, 06:00:33 PM

Title: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: gmcnic on March 16, 2017, 06:00:33 PM
A lot of you probably received an email notice from MAAC today regarding aviation safety.  For those of you not on their emailing list, I include the notice below which I believe is quite clear.  I think MAAC have worked wonderfully with Transport Canada on this.

Cheers,
Graham



Model Aeronautics Association of Canada
Rodger Williams, President
[email protected]
+1 418 564-5225
www.MAAC.ca
March 16, 2017
Burlington, ON

For Immediate Release
Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
MAAC Members and Clubs See Exemptions

Transport Canada's announcement of interim regulations for drone use will impact model aviation enthusiasts across the country that are flying any model aircraft between 250g and 35kg. The regulations place restrictions on how high model aircraft can be flown, and minimum distances from people and buildings when flying that will severely limit how and where people can enjoy the hobby. The announcement states that not only must recreational users put their contact information on drones, but also that they may not fly higher than 90 metres, within 150 metres of buildings, vehicles or people, or within 9 kilometres of the centre of any aerodrome.

However, within the regulations is an exemption for Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) Members flying at MAAC sanction fields and/or events. The exemption granted to MAAC members and sanctioned events is crucial to the continued operation of hundreds of clubs across the country.

The Transport Canada Advisory group of MAAC and the Board of Directors on behalf of The Model Aeronautics Association of Canada acknowledges Transport Canada's safety concerns and is appreciative for the clear recognition of the long history of safe operations by our membership. One of MAAC's primary goals is keeping our members informed and educated on how to enjoy the hobby while keeping safety in the forefront, and that effort has paid off with this exemption.

One of the results of the regulations will be a surge of people looking to find a home within MAAC and MAAC member clubs. If we want this exemption to continue, it is crucial these new members be made to feel welcome and that they are educated on safe model operations. MAAC encourages members, clubs, and club executives to welcome these new members and/or actively assist them in forming their own interest specific clubs.

The interim regulations also call for active enforcement by local police forces, which may create issues for some members and clubs. MAAC recommends clubs contact their local authorities and ensure they are aware of the club's existence, MAAC affiliation, and the Transport Canada exemption.

About The Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC):
MAAC is Canada's internationally and federally recognized model aviation sanctioning body. Additionally, MAAC is a sitting member of Canadian Aviation Regulatory Advisory Council (CARAC), holds corporate membership with Unmanned Systems Canada (USC) and is a voting member of the FAI and the Aero Club of Canada.

For over 65 years the association has provided leadership, safety guidelines, and liability insurance to individual members, clubs, and field owners. MAAC serves over 11,500 members and more than 350 clubs across Canada. MAAC members are active in all disciplines of model aviation from free-flight models through radio controlled turbine powered models, including multi-rotor aircraft RC boating and rocketry.

For more information contact your zone director, the MAAC Office (maac.ca) or
Rodger Williams, President
[email protected] +1 418 564-5225
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: Wingnutz on March 16, 2017, 07:26:09 PM
Does anyone have a link to these interim regulations so we can read them directly?
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: pmolano on March 16, 2017, 08:24:20 PM
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/interim-order-respecting-use-model-aircraft.html
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: pmackenzie on March 17, 2017, 06:45:56 AM
Pretty much puts an end to any future float flying, unless the models are less than 250 grams.
I am glad that MAAC was able to get the exemption they did get, but IMO we have lost a lot with this silly nonsense.
The sky has been stolen from us.  I am very depressed about this.


"Take my love, take my land,
Take me where I cannot stand.
I don't care, I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me."

( Firefly theme by Joss Whedon)

Pat MacKenzie



Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: bweaver on March 17, 2017, 10:54:43 AM
I agree Pat.  I am disappointed with the 'tar everyone with the same brush' approach taken by Transport Canada.  I understand how you feel this will impact on float flying due to the restrictions imposed.  Further...,

Taking the regulation literally, it also applies to control line flying at non MAAC sanctioned control line sites where the 'model aircraft' are flown within the prohibited distances to people, spectators, buildings, cars, etc. Is this really what was intended?

The new reg's now make flying free flight and RC flying more precarious due to the added liability individuals and clubs could be exposed to, should a model aircraft cause injury or damage once the aircraft inadvertently leaves the boundaries of the MAAC sanctioned site.

There are many factors model aircraft clubs and hobbyist need to consider now.

The other thing that puts me off about this, is Transport Canada's media release.  They use the term 'drones' which isn't even used in the regulations and only depict multi-rotor aircraft.  http://temac.ca/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6109.0;attach=18879  >:(

Sorry about the rant...  :'(
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: piker on March 17, 2017, 01:12:40 PM
I know the new rules can be taken literally to apply to all type of model aircraft, but I think it's obvious that they're put into place to restrict the out of control, new fad of, unregulated quadcopter (Drone) flying where people without the common sense and understanding of the risk are flying in inappropriate locations.  The press release doesn't show a single picture of a model aircraft.  Just quads.  I feel the cops will be on the lookout for this type of activity, and now have a way to enforce it.  I feel the hobby of flying model airplanes, which has been mostly harmless for decades, will be left alone.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: sihinch on March 17, 2017, 02:17:37 PM
Can't we meet all these criteria at your house, @piker ?  ;D

"within 150 metres of buildings, vehicles or people, or within 9 kilometres of the centre of any aerodrome."
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: piker on March 17, 2017, 03:35:45 PM
Ha.  Funny you should ask.  I live 650 meters from an airport!!!

I plan to talk to the guys at the seaplane base and let them know that I'll be flying models at my place.  Mainly so they know that I'm aware of the  hazards and that as long as they do their fly over, as I believe they do as procedure for a landing on water, I'll have my model down and out of the way before they come in for a landing.   My biggest concern is that they sometimes come in for a landing from around the corner of the shoreline and land right off my backyard, with barely a whisper.  However, I think if I'm flying and, paying attention, I'll know they're in the area and get my model down, just in case.  Also, I will almost always fly in the calm evenings or mornings, when there's pretty much no activity on the lake.

It's actually very interesting to watch the planes come and go as there's a lot of boating activity on the lake.  I just hope everyone knows to stay out of their way.  I'm not sure if the geese know though.

Oh, and the other place I'm proposing as an excellent float flying site is 5km from the same seaplane base.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: Michael on March 17, 2017, 04:37:43 PM
I'll ask MAAC if a chartered club float fly event, operated with the permission of the land owner, is permissible.


********

This is the email I sent:

I am the Deputy L Zone director.

Can individual chartered MAAC clubs have model airplane float fly events on private property (not at the club itself), if operated with the permission of the land owner?

Can individual MAAC members fly float planes from water on private property (not at the club itself), if operated with the permission of the land owner?

Thank you.

Michael

Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: piker on March 17, 2017, 06:15:04 PM
I think the answer is "yes"  I recall this being a thing... especially for float flying
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: pmackenzie on March 17, 2017, 07:50:17 PM
The problem is that MAAC now is only doing the bidding of TC.
But if MAAC gives you a sanction, then you should be good to go. My fear is that they will tend to play it safe and won't.

Prior to TEMAC many of us used to fly for years at Milliken park, and then 14th avenue after that.
If these new rules had been in place most of that flying would now be deemed "illegal" and we all would have been subject to fines.
I think it is entirely possible that I would never have been able to take up modelling under these rules.

If I look at the flying I have been doing lately it is all in compliance, because I generally fly at MAAC fields now.
But just hovering my 450 in the backyard, or in the field down the street is now against these new regulations.
I flew DLG twice this winter down in the park. One model weighed just under 250 grams, the other about 15 grams over.
So one was OK(at least according to TC regs), but the other not. It just makes no sense. Are the cops going to have a set of scales with them?
Most likely they would just "educate" me, and tell me to stop flying no matter what the weight.

""Of course discretion is a part of this as well too. Police officers have the discretion just to educate, perhaps, an operator of a drone, all the way to [using] the Criminal Code.""
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-drone-regulations-marc-garneau-1.4027486
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: Wingnutz on March 19, 2017, 08:14:45 AM
Quote from: piker on March 17, 2017, 01:12:40 PM
I know the new rules can be taken literally to apply to all type of model aircraft, but I think it's obvious that they're put into place to restrict the out of control, new fad of, unregulated quadcopter (Drone) flying where people without the common sense and understanding of the risk are flying in inappropriate locations.  The press release doesn't show a single picture of a model aircraft.  Just quads.  I feel the cops will be on the lookout for this type of activity, and now have a way to enforce it.  I feel the hobby of flying model airplanes, which has been mostly harmless for decades, will be left alone.

I agree with Rob...between the MAAC exemption and the possibility of enlightened enforcement, I don't think the skies have been closed to responsible, educated model airplane (or drone) pilots.
However as a full size pilot who last November spotted and reported a drone at nearly 2000' between Oshawa and Buttonville, I applaud TCs efforts to try to close the skies to this kind of wreckless unmanned aircraft operation.
It will be interesting to see if the regulations scheduled for June release do a better job of addressing the issue for everyone.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: sihinch on March 20, 2017, 11:00:45 AM
For those of you who have concerns or issues with the new regulations, you may consider signing this petition....

https://www.change.org/p/marc-garneau-immediate-halt-of-transport-canada-new-safety-rules-for-recreational-drone-use-in-canada
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: Michael on March 22, 2017, 03:27:05 PM
Here is the official answer:

Hi Michael,
Members are exempt if flying at a MAAC registered field or event.  If the site is not a registered field or event, you must abide by the legislation.
Linda Patrick
MAAC Secretary/Treasurer


Here are the practical and pragmatic ways forward:

1. If we floatfly with the landowner's permission, and the event is sanctioned by MAAC, we can fly. Sanctioning is easy; follow instructions on the MAAC website; do it a couple weeks before or more.

2. We cannot fly with MAAC protection, if there is no formal permission and sanction. In that case, all the new laws apply.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: Palkina on March 31, 2017, 09:49:47 PM
Crazy Canadian Drone Laws! A Police Officer's Perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qtQIa5wm3Y
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: Palkina on May 22, 2017, 06:15:16 AM
John Taylor defeats FAA Registration Rule For Model Aircraft
https://www.suasnews.com/2017/05/john-taylor-defeats-faa-registration-rule-model-aircraft/ (https://www.suasnews.com/2017/05/john-taylor-defeats-faa-registration-rule-model-aircraft/)
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: Oscar on May 23, 2017, 09:28:06 AM
Thank you Carlos.  I wonder how they are going to refund those money back to the them.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: mawz on June 25, 2017, 12:09:19 PM
The proposed final regs are now available and in force as an interim regulation (the next step is that public input is taken, there may be changes before the finalized rule is published in the next Gazette)

http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2017/2017-06-24/html/notice-avis-eng.php#na5

They're significantly less restrictive than the temporary regs.

Note the MAAC exemption for all sanctioned fields & events is much clearer here. Also exempt are all models under 250g (so UMX and similar are only subject to local bylaws).

The 9km from any airport has become 5.5km from any airport or 1.8km from any heliport. No operating within a control zone (do remember that outside of the close terminal area, control zones have a minimum altitude so you can be under them but not in them). This always was the biggest issue with the regs, and has been greatly lessened.

One new change is that aircraft between 250g and 1Kg must be operated at least 30m from any vehicle, vessel or the public (individuals involved in the operation of the aircraft do not count, I read this as instructors, spotters or the pilot). Aircraft over 1Kg but under 35Kg retain the 75m limit for this.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: vicwhit on August 03, 2017, 05:26:10 PM
When the proposed regulations come into effect, say goodbye to the exemption we have been operating under. I highly recommend you read it (all 46 pages of it). You will find the new regs complicated, onerous, expensive, defeating, demoralizing, and deadly to our hobby as we know it.

I cannot understand why there is so much silence on the subject both within the club and from our Mother M.A.A.C.

I have sent this message to the M.A.A.C. chairperson in charge with Transport Canada activities.
"Hello Rodger,
You must be aware of the groundswell of concern regarding the impending changes to our hobby with the proposed Transport Canada regulations. I am completely astounded on the onerous and complex nature with the proposed rules. The hobby will not be anything what we know it as today. Many current hobbyists will leave the activity and new candidates will disappear. You won't even be able to teach your grandchildren how to fly until they are 14 years old. What a travesty to everyone!
Many, if not most of the members in my club have been complacent with the Interim Orders due to the M.A.A.C. exemption but almost everyone is unaware that the exemption ends with the new regulations.

M.A.A.C. has been mostly silent on this issue and the activities it has undertaken to protect and preserve our interests. It would be most appropriate for you, as the interface with Transport Canada to provide some insight on both the issue at hand and M.A.A.C.'s passed and planned actions."


I will pass on any comments I get.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: vicwhit on August 03, 2017, 07:43:07 PM
I got this reply from Rodger Williams:
I understand your concern however there will not be any changes for MAAC members as we will be exempt from the new Transport Canada as before so for you and your club members just go and fly as before.
At this time we are attending meetings from coast to coast with Transport Canada. Keep your eyes on the MAAC website for updates

Thanks for your concern but just go and enjoy the hobby


To which I replied:
Thanks for your timely reply.

Unless M.A.A.C. has had undisclosed discussions with CARAC and Transport Canada, I am in disagreement.

Here is a quote from the Gazette: "Recreational operations that would be impacted by this amendment include the recreational operations that are currently required to adhere to the Interim Order and the existing "model aircraft" category operated under the auspices of MAAC."

We will be impacted. There are no exemptions mentioned in the proposed rules for any associations.
Thanks,
Vic
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: vicwhit on August 04, 2017, 10:28:10 AM
And Rodger's reply...

"They will come as promised"

That is it? We just complacently wait and see? ???
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: bweaver on August 04, 2017, 12:22:47 PM
Vic, I have not been successful in finding the following statement on the Gov of Canada web site, "Recreational operations that would be impacted by this amendment include the recreational operations that are currently required to adhere to the Interim Order and the existing "model aircraft" category operated under the auspices of MAAC."

Would you please attach a link to this statement so that it can be put in some kind of context?
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: vicwhit on August 04, 2017, 01:40:34 PM
http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2017/2017-07-15/html/reg2-eng.php (http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2017/2017-07-15/html/reg2-eng.php)
Regulations Amending the Canadian Aviation Regulations (Unmanned Aircraft Systems)

Section "Description", second paragraph
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: bweaver on August 04, 2017, 05:47:16 PM
I have found the following text in the document you referred to that gives me some comfort Annex B: Summary Comparison of Regulatory Frameworks for Unmanned Air Systems (bottom row of table)

Also the following extract:

Aeromodelling associations

The following presents a rationale with respect to why the proposed Regulations do not include an exception for MAAC members.

MAAC has a long history of a safety culture, provides continued mentoring and guidance and has insurance for its members. It is Transport Canada's intent to develop criteria for new emerging model associations that can provide to their members the same mentoring as MAAC does. The proposed Regulations would apply to MAAC members until such time as these criteria are developed and further amendments are introduced to carve out those associations. Until the Regulations can be modified to address new and emerging aero-modelling associations, Transport Canada would issue an exemption to MAAC members to the proposed requirements, so as to not negatively impact this sector of the industry.


Further references include:

The proposed amendment differs from the NPA in two other areas, which will be further explored for subsequent regulatory proposals.

    (1) It was originally thought that aero-modellers with a UA above 1 kg, for instance, would not have to pass the Transport Canada knowledge test, identify their UA and have their own insurance. The NPA describes this segment of the UAS community as responsible for maintaining an excellent safety record by establishing safety codes and ensuring that members adhere to those safety codes. The proposed amendment does not preclude a person from joining an aero-modeller association where one could benefit from the group liability insurance provided by the association. The consideration that associations other than MAAC would want to benefit from the privileges of a mentoring type community led Transport Canada to delay regulating these types of associations until criteria could be developed that would provide equivalent safety within these emerging associations. Until those criteria have been identified and further regulatory changes have been introduced, an exemption to the proposed Regulations applying to persons who are members of MAAC in good standing will be issued by Transport Canada. The Aeronautics Act authorizes the Minister of Transport to exempt any person from the application of any regulation made under this Act, provided the exemption is in the public interest and is not likely to adversely affect aviation safety. Since MAAC members have demonstrated over time a safe operating record, this exemption is expected to be made available when the proposed Regulations are in force.

I can see one instance where the proposed regulation specifically regulates a MAAC member pursuant to 901.04(b)  Please refer to this requirement.  I don't think it will impact anyone in TEMAC but I meet be wrong.

"(b) the operation, by a member of the Model Aeronautics Association of Canada (MAAC) or another Canadian aeromodelling association, of an unmanned aircraft that has a maximum take-off weight of more than 35 kg (77.2 pounds) and that is used for recreational purposes;"
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: mawz on August 12, 2017, 02:44:33 PM
Bruce,

Models over 35Kg have long required special approval from Transport Canada, so that area is not a change.
Title: Re: Transport Canada Regulations Limit Model Aviation Activities
Post by: bweaver on August 12, 2017, 05:22:14 PM
Quite true, however it appears that this specific requirement was necessary to add in the regulations so that a MAAC member will not be exempted in this instance when the government provides the specified MAAC exemption.