Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club Forum

Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club (TEMAC) => Building / Construction => Topic started by: Frank v B on November 03, 2018, 08:54:57 pm

Title: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on November 03, 2018, 08:54:57 pm
An old electric plane magically fell into my car.  Have decided to re-build it.

How it was- it had a geared brushed motor, the red covering was bleached almost white by the sun, the tires were foam but disintegrating.... perfect for a re-build.

Project definition: am going to recover it, install a Rimfire 42-50-600 (Power 32 equiv.), maybe add retracts since I have two pairs of salvaged electric retracts.

Just in case you are wondering why the massive power.  Converting a brushed motor airplane to a brushless power system creates a balance problem.  Brushed motor conversions always come out tail heavy.  Nothing better than increasing the motor size.  On 3 S it would be 375 watts, on 4 cells it would be 500 watts and on 5 cells 650 watts.  Lots of opportunities to fine tune the power equation.  It was originally designed for about 180 watts.

Will strip the covering from the wing so I can add the retracts and re-inforce the wing.

Stay tuned.


Frank
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on November 05, 2018, 10:31:04 pm
Keep going.....

- stripped all the covering off the fuselage, wings and stab.
- re-built the nose and made a new firewall.  The distance was easy to calculate- I put the back of the prop in the same place as the old brushed motor.
- drilled the shaft hole and installed the motor.
- stripped the wing and cut the starboard (right) wing bottom open to fit the retracts.  Method- open up the hole in one wing half, install the bracing, install the retracts, make sure they work, cover the opening, make the wheel well.  Then if everything works... duplicate the same mistakes on the port side and install it the same way. :)

Note: I went to the centre rib because I want the bracing to get to the centre so I can fibreglass it for strength.

Frank

Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on November 05, 2018, 11:01:34 pm
Starting the cowl

To make a cowl removable, there must be a ply back plate to it.  The magnets and registration pins will be drilled into this ring.

- Took a random piece of balsa wood (3/32) larger than the cowl diameter and cut a hole with a Dremel sanding drum until it fit around the X mount, wires and vent holes.
- turned the plane upside down while holding the piece of balsa in place.  Ran a pen around it to roughly mark the perimeter of the fuselage/firewall.

This piece of balsa will be used as a template to cut out the plywood ring.

The outside diameter does not need to be accurate because it is easier to sand when the whole cowl is ready to be sanded to shape.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on November 06, 2018, 09:45:55 am
Starting the cowl

To make a cowl removable, there must be a ply back plate to it.  The magnets and registration pins will be drilled into this ring.

- Took a random piece of balsa wood (3/32) larger than the cowl diameter and cut a hole with a Dremel sanding drum until it fit around the X mount, wires and vent holes.
- turned the plane upside down while holding the piece of balsa in place.  Ran a pen around it to roughly mark the perimeter of the fuselage/firewall.

This piece of balsa will be used as a template to cut out the plywood ring.

The outside diameter does not need to be accurate because it is easier to sand when the whole cowl is ready to be sanded to shape.

Very cool Frank!   You can also do this by spreading cheese or peanut butter on the back plate where you want to remove material and leave it out for a mouse to gnaw on.  This method will give much more entertaining photos.  You could even try a time lapse movie series!!   :D  Andy
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on November 06, 2018, 09:12:11 pm
Andy,

re: your "...and leave it out for a mouse to gnaw on."

Like this??


Frank (Who else?)
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on November 06, 2018, 09:24:05 pm
Andy,

re: your "...and leave it out for a mouse to gnaw on."

Like this??


Frank (Who else?)

Perfect!  Aside from a modest focus issue on the first photo, your images are getting better and better all the time!  You are a good student!!  8)  Andy
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on November 06, 2018, 09:27:26 pm
Andy,

re:  "Aside from a modest focus issue on the first photo"

It will automatically be in focus after one beer. ;D  You have obviously been abstaining.

Thanks, Teach.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: piker on November 07, 2018, 11:23:56 am
I'm no photographer, but I'd not call that a "modest focus issue"   :o

But I like the art work.

Robert
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on November 10, 2018, 10:38:31 pm
Making the cowl out of balsa.

- took the 1/16" plywood ring made in the earlier Mickey Mouse photos and made registration pins.  Drilled 3 holes through the ring and inserted dowels.  Then glued balsa onto them and tri-stock in side the corners.
- held the cowl onto the fuselage and planed the cowl to a rough shape with a razor plane
- did some hand-sanding.

Next step- fill the gaps in the firewall and the joint between the firewall and the cowl.  Will fill this with balsa filler.  To make sure the filler doesn't stick the cowl to the fuselage, I have inserted a sheet of waxed paper.  See last photo.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: BJROB on November 15, 2018, 11:31:24 am
We saw Franks innovation to strengthening the elevator :o at last nights TEMAC meeting ... topic ...tools and tips
Epoxy fibreglass wax paper and tape.  :P
Great tip.  ::)
Super smooth and strong
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on November 25, 2018, 04:55:25 pm
Retracts in the wing.

A bit like putting a gallon into a quart can.

- cut open the wing
- added a plywood brace to the center rib
- glued two rails in place
- installed the retract.

Will let it cure, then make the same mistakes on the other side.

The only challenge will be getting small enough wheels that fit into the space.  We'll worry about that later.  Thanks to our Geotex runway we can fly with small wheels.

Frank
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 18, 2018, 09:29:26 pm
One side is done. 

Used smallest wheels that would (probably) work.  Bent the gear leg, added the wheel, then the wheel collar and installed it.  It works!  The next step is to back-fill the balsa around the wheel well.  Once done and tested, the other side will have the mirror image of everything.... including the mistakes.  Remember, as long as everything is done symmetrically, including mistakes, the plane will fly.


Frank
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: bweaver on December 18, 2018, 10:55:36 pm
One side is done. 

Used smallest wheels that would (probably) work.  Bent the gear leg, added the wheel, then the wheel collar and installed it.  It works!  The next step is to back-fill the balsa around the wheel well.  Once done and tested, the other side will have the mirror image of everything.... including the mistakes.  Remember, as long as everything is done symmetrically, including mistakes, the plane will fly.


Frank

@Frank v B , the last time I was flying, I had a mishap.  The wing mistakenly came off symmetrically from each side of the fuselage.  My plane didn't fly anymore. The motor still worked.  The prop went round and round.   ???  Why does your theory not work on my model airplanes? 

I am sure I am not the only one experiencing similar symmetrical mistakes resulting in planes that don't fly.  :-[
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 19, 2018, 07:02:20 am
Bruce,

You're an amateur crasher.  I am professional grade. ;D

Frank
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on December 19, 2018, 08:10:17 am
Fabulous progress @Frank v B !  Your mouse did a superb job hollowing out the cowling and the wheel wells.

And your photography!!  :D

Bravo!

Andy
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: piker on December 19, 2018, 09:30:07 am
I can't keep track of the dozens of building projects that Frank is working on.  My head is spinning!    :o

Some are for other people, some are for going really fast, some are for planting... I'm confused.  Do you guys (Andy, Bruce) follow what's going on?

Robert
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: bweaver on December 19, 2018, 10:15:44 am
I can't keep track of the dozens of building projects that Frank is working on.  My head is spinning!    :o

Some are for other people, some are for going really fast, some are for planting... I'm confused.  Do you guys (Andy, Bruce) follow what's going on?

Robert

In response to your question: When it comes to @Frank v B , I try not to.  I find it easier and less confusing that way.   ;)
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on December 19, 2018, 11:12:51 am
I can't keep track of the dozens of building projects that Frank is working on.  My head is spinning!    :o

Some are for other people, some are for going really fast, some are for planting... I'm confused.  Do you guys (Andy, Bruce) follow what's going on?

Robert

Hi @piker

I absolutely get what's going on. @Frank v B has been blessed with the attention span of Siphonaptera and simply cannot help but bounce deftly from one project to another, 5-minute epoxy in hand.  If Cynthia can just get some epoxy on the seat of his pants, plebes like us may eventually get to see him sit still long enough to stick with one project through to completion at sub-sonic speed!   8).

Envious Andy
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 19, 2018, 04:06:08 pm
OOOOHHHHH! some replies are warranted:

re: Bruce's breaking off his wings symmetrically and the prop spinning madly.... so that's why you sponsored the car track at the field.  Fly a model until it breaks then drive it around the race course.  I get it. ;)  Smart man. :)

re: Andy's Syphonophtera-  had to Google it.  "Fleas are small flightless insects that form the order Siphonaptera. As external parasites of mammals and birds, they live by consuming the blood of their hosts".  Am I that bad?  As a modeller I am not offended by calling me a "flea" but calling me "flightless" crosses the line.  8)

re: Piker- what project am I working on now?  I am an opportunistic modeller.  If John's Hobbies calls me to do a repair, I give it priority because he pays me in store credits, which allowed me to order the V900.  Then he phones me that the V900 has arrived so I need to pick it up instantly before he sees the light and sells it to Simon.  When Rudie Nagelmakers throws the EP Sportster into the back of my car I have to finish the adoption process by rebuilding it... then Michael gave me retracts so they had to be used in the Sportster project.  It's a real problem being surrounded by many nice people.... and Andy. ;)

I now know how much time each project will take so I can allot my time to get everything finished over the Holidays.

Piker, what don't you understand?  Just because I am the poster child for senior citizens with ADD and spokesman for the "2 minute epoxy" development group.  Five minutes is soooo slow.

Frank :D
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: bweaver on December 19, 2018, 05:05:10 pm
OOOOHHHHH! some replies are warranted:

re: Bruce's breaking off his wings symmetrically and the prop spinning madly.... so that's why you sponsored the car track at the field.  Fly a model until it breaks then drive it around the race course.  I get it. ;)  Smart man. :)

@Frank v B  Not only are you experiencing ADD, you are hallucinating or experiencing a delusional disorder. You have obviously mistaken me for someone else.  While I am a 'smart man', I do not, did not and will not likely have any role in the development, maintenance, operation or enjoyment of the car track at the field.  (Not that there is anything wrong with car track at the field.) 

Further, you somewhat resemble the flightless individual depicted below.
 
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 19, 2018, 08:13:49 pm
Bruce:

re:"Further, you somewhat resemble the flightless individual depicted below."


 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 22, 2018, 07:09:04 pm
A photo of the wheel in place before filling the gap back up.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 23, 2018, 08:14:59 pm
Update: 
- both sides are done. 
- The gear is operating
- the center section is fibreglassed... with a few strips of carbon.
- the wheel wells were filled back in.

Since the retracts were installed individually, there was no dihedral brace to join the halves.  This was solved by wrapping and 5 minute epoxying some fibreglass on the joint.  The few strips of carbon were just some insurance. (belt and suspenders)

Frank

Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 25, 2018, 09:56:30 am
Covered the wing, installed the retracts. I will spray the wheel well red after all the covering is finished

Note that the port aileron pulled out after gluing.  Will have to re-do it.

Off to Christmas brunch before I am called "Scrooge".... again.

Merry-Whatever you are celebrating today, even if it is just a day off.

One week until the New Year's Fool Fly. ;D

Frank

notice that I got the flash reflection just right to tee Andy off.  That's skill. ;D 8)
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on December 25, 2018, 09:01:44 pm
Covered the wing, installed the retracts. I will spray the wheel well red after all the covering is finished

Note that the port aileron pulled out after gluing.  Will have to re-do it.

Off to Christmas brunch before I am called "Scrooge".... again.

Merry-Whatever you are celebrating today, even if it is just a day off.

One week until the New Year's Fool Fly. ;D

Frank

notice that I got the flash reflection just right to tee Andy off.  That's skill. ;D 8)

For those wishing to protect their retinas while salivating over @Frank v B 's masterful craftsmanship ......   8)

Andy

Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: bweaver on December 25, 2018, 11:13:27 pm
 @Andy Hoffer  Your improvements enhancements for protecting our retinas only half finished the job. 

Why didn't you finish off the wheel wells too, because I can't imagine what they will look like when they are done.   ???  ;)
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on December 26, 2018, 09:52:51 am
@Andy Hoffer  Your improvements enhancements for protecting our retinas only half finished the job. 

Why didn't you finish off the wheel wells too, because I can't imagine what they will look like when they are done.   ???  ;)

Hi @bweaver

The thought had crossed my mind, but I felt it just wouldn't be nice to scoop @Frank v B and dampen his enthusiasm on Christmas.  And I'm sure there will be plenty to work on when he has finished the project!! 8)

Andy
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 26, 2018, 10:14:10 am
Bruce,

re: your "Why didn't you finish off the wheel wells too, because I can't imagine what they will look like when they are done.   ???  ;)"

From my original post "I will spray the wheel well red after all the covering is finished". So please be patient.

I have signed you up for the remedial reading course.  Good luck. ;)

Andy:

Thank you for the concern.  You can never dampen my spirits, even on Christmas.  Model building is not "an escape to something" it is always an "escape from something like work, family pressures, or in my case, Bruce".  ;)

Frank
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 27, 2018, 10:35:18 am
covering 101 completed.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 29, 2018, 09:14:15 pm
DONE

Final assembly completed.  Motor tested, prop installed, 45 amp esc, FM radio.

Don't like the prop combo yet.  It draws 27 amps on 5 cells with an 11x11 prop.  360 watts. 
Have the winter to fine-tune it.  Will also add trim striping.

Note in the photos that there is toe-out on the main wheels.  Will twist them back so there is toe-in.

Ready to fly. 

Frank

Andy, note the reflection of the Christmas tree lights on the wing on the left side of the photo (photo of the top and bottom) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on December 29, 2018, 09:35:03 pm
Love the Christmas tree lights!  Love the 72 MHz FM antenna wire!

Beautiful job @Frank v B .

All you need to do is get right down on the floor and do 3/4 frontal and 3/4 rear shots.

Andy  8)

Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: sihinch on December 29, 2018, 11:19:43 pm
Looks great Frank. Congrats.

Something doesn’t sound right with those current and prop figures. 27 amps on 5 cells should be over 500 watts at least.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: bweaver on December 30, 2018, 12:09:03 am
Great Spray Job on spraying those wheel wells.  Did you use a clear spray for that natural look?  ???
 
http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,6818.msg45272.html#msg45272
http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,6818.msg45295.html#msg45295

I read it the first time, I read it the second time and Frank, you still haven't got it done.  You know I don't have much patience. 
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 30, 2018, 09:45:54 am
Bruce,

re: "You know I don't have much patience."

If patience is a virtue, what are you saying about yourself?? ;)

I will get it done for you, Master.  This year even. Will post a photo by December 31 at 11:59 pm.

Frank

Simon,  I was suspect about the numbers but put the prop on before ever putting the plane on extended landing gear.  My fear of ground clearance is not an issue at all.  Will go to a larger diameter prop.  It is a fairly low KV motor for its size so it will like the larger prop versus higher pitch. A 4 cell pack only got it up to about 18 amps.  Remember, I have limited experience with anything above 4 cells. :)

Andy, the 72 meg antenna wire was just for you.  You appreciate the finer points in life.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on December 30, 2018, 10:29:07 am
Looks great Frank. Congrats.

Something doesn’t sound right with those current and prop figures. 27 amps on 5 cells should be over 500 watts at least.

Hey @Frank v B ,

Maybe try LiPos instead of the NiCads that came with the Sportster.  :D

Andy
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: bweaver on December 30, 2018, 10:31:27 am
I forgot to mention that I really do like the creative color scheme you selected...

Is that plane coming or going?  Is that the top or bottom?  Oh yeh, I see it now, that's the bottom... I can tell by the wheel wells.   

PLANT!   8)
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 30, 2018, 11:07:50 am
Oh, Bruce.  So critical.... from a man who flies "Factory Blue" foam.  This plane has a vertical surface on the back known as a fin/rudder.  When it points up, the plane is right side up.  I will make sure your instructor covers that with you in your next flying lesson.;)

Couldn't leave you in pain for any longer.

photo 1 - wing wells masked
photo 2 - wing wells spray painted.  Will apply a second coat of paint when I return from my errands. (completed 12:12 pm today)

Frank

Andy, please note the ample amount of reflection on the wood floor.  The wood floor in the background is original 1923 quarter cut oak.  Hell, in 4 years my house will be declared a historic site.  Probably applies to the inhabitants too. ;)
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: bweaver on December 30, 2018, 12:30:33 pm
Why do you think they made me CFI.  I know why planes fly.
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 30, 2018, 12:34:19 pm
Bruce, you are so knowledgeable.

Now can you colour it? 

 :) :)

Frank

ps: We have to make sure the Ryerson Aeronautics group get a copy of this. :D
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: sihinch on December 30, 2018, 01:44:37 pm
Hey Frank, I still think there’s something odd about the power figures, irrespective of the prop.

If we assume 3.8v per cell under load, for the 4S calculation (15.2 volts) and 18 amps you would expect to see 270 watts.

For the 5S and 27 amps you should see 510 watts.

Are you sure the motor is OK?
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Frank v B on December 30, 2018, 02:28:34 pm
Simon,

I am going back to square one on this motor thing. 
I did not charge the battery, could not find the Rimfire stats (the new one is 800 kv, not mine at 600 kv) and did not test the battery voltage.  Could have a bad cell for all I know.  The motor sounded fine but not the growl I was expecting.  Leave it with me and I will do a full report on this thread.

Frank
Title: Re: Frank's EP Supersportster re-build
Post by: Andy Hoffer on December 30, 2018, 04:06:46 pm
Oh, Bruce.  So critical.... from a man who flies "Factory Blue" foam.  This plane has a vertical surface on the back known as a fin/rudder.  When it points up, the plane is right side up.  I will make sure your instructor covers that with you in your next flying lesson.;)

Couldn't leave you in pain for any longer.

photo 1 - wing wells masked
photo 2 - wing wells spray painted.  Will apply a second coat of paint when I return from my errands. (completed 12:12 pm today)

Frank

Andy, please note the ample amount of reflection on the wood floor.  The wood floor in the background is original 1923 quarter cut oak.  Hell, in 4 years my house will be declared a historic site.  Probably applies to the inhabitants too. ;)

Hey @Frank v B ,

Great paint job!  This thread is almost as addictive as the Big Bang Theory marathon.  I love the booties on the wheels!  And the now monochrome servo leads on the retracts!!  You are a true artiste.  8)

Andy