Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club Forum

Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club (TEMAC) => General Discussion => Topic started by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 11:33:24 am

Title: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 11:33:24 am
Hi, Guys is anyone interested in starting a little 3D / Precision aerobatics club withing TEMAC?
Maybe, some guys who have more experience will help with comments instructions, and it would be great if we can help each other with maneuver calls etc.
Who is interested? let's schedule meeting times and dates, equipment, routines, articles here.

Edit:
Top reference:
http://f3acanada.org/canadian-precision-aerobatics-schedules/
http://www.mini-iac.org/Downloads


Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Oscar on August 12, 2019, 01:40:36 pm
Hi Vadim, I am interested.  Please count me in.  :)
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 01:57:52 pm
Thanks Oscar Great beginning.
What would you suggest to someone who starts in aerobatics? what kind of airplane? smaller or larger, foam or balsa, 3S or 4S? pattern or 3D? 
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: octagon on August 12, 2019, 02:16:12 pm
Hi Vadim,
Are you talking 3D or precision aerobatics?
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Oscar on August 12, 2019, 02:19:36 pm
I am a beginner on this.  I know 3D and F3A / Precision Aerobatic is totally different flight characterises.  A F3A plane does not have large control surface and the air frame is a lot slimmer.  They are not good for 3D. 

For beginner, foam will be better choice whether it's 3D or F3A.

For 3D plane, there are lots of options. 

From HH
Commander mPd, VisionAire, Night VisionAire, Slickm Sukhoi, Pitts...

From FMS
MXS, SBach, Votec, Extra 330, Edge 540...

For F3A
FMS Explorer, FMS Olympus, Dynam Smart Aerobatic...




Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 02:37:47 pm
Here is the thing, I'm not sure what i want more, that is why i started the topic. it seemed close enough for me to put them together. I do ultimately want to have skills for 3D aerobatics, it looks cool. But Precision aerobatics has a competitive component, and it seems like it's a way to learn maneuvers and keep discipline in actions. I think if i start #d i will crash airplane before i learn to fly.

To: Rob. one of the reasons i'm starting this is I'm looking at your Brio to start. Let me know Guys if that is a good plane to start.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: msatin on August 12, 2019, 03:44:26 pm
It is WAY too early for me to even consider flying 3D or PA.
Having said that, I do have an interest in learning more about this.
Please include me in the discussion
Thanks
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: octagon on August 12, 2019, 03:49:02 pm
The brio is good and light and will be a good plane. If you are interested in an ARF you will not find a nicer precision plane than the Ultra Sport. It is one of my favorite planes of all time. FMS makes a plane called the Olympus that is a fantastic plane. Simon (the other Simon) is very good at precision aerobatics and he says it is his best plane and he has some very nice planes. I have taken two , one week courses in aerobatics from First US Flight School up in Wisconsin. Dave Scott is an excellent teacher. Check his website. He has books that he has written for sale. I have them all. As for 3 D, just not my thing. 55% expo just to fly, uhuh not me.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: sihinch on August 12, 2019, 03:54:10 pm
I’d be interested in Precision aerobatics.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 04:06:59 pm
Thanks Rob,
I found this website for Dave Scott
https://www.rcflightschool.com/

Is this the one you were talking about?

 
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: octagon on August 12, 2019, 04:31:12 pm
Yes that is him. Real good guy. Flys a full size Pitts in airshows around. He is talking about moving to North Carolina. His books are great. I also should mention another ARF that is perhaps one of the best aerobatic trainers around, and that is the Ugly Stick. Been around for decades and is just and unbelievable flyer. I am working on a 60 size Ultra Stick right now. 
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 12, 2019, 04:42:17 pm
I have been thinking of getting one of these planes for a few years:
https://www.precisionaerobatics.com/
https://www.precisionaerobatics.com/product/katana-52-arf/

They also have a great video series:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5XhFvBoR1TExDrfHvuz5iof6bxYrVAMx&fbclid=IwAR3XvIA0iIRhJ20-ObE_CjKyMQKUqLr_HHfHz37lSIgj9A9eHpJPaIHn1Mg

Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 04:59:09 pm
Here is my big question. 
If I get 3D airplane it should be able to do precision Aerobatics.  Is it any harder with 3D airplane like Katana?  And otherwise, can precision Aerobatics airplane like ultra sport can do 3D tricks are they any harder ?
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 12, 2019, 05:04:17 pm
From what I have been told, it is easier to do 3D with a good 3D plane vs a sport/3D, but it might be worth starting with a foam Hobbyking https://hobbyking.com/en_us/hobbykingr-tm-mx2-3d-epp-955mm-arf.html to avoid destroying a beautiful plane when trying rolling harriers!!!
A lot of people get really good at 3D with the simulators to start. I have just been to lazy to install it on my computer
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 12, 2019, 05:18:02 pm
I think F3A is a very different type of flying to 3D, much faster and larger maneuvers .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_TeqW0DGzc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKjc68J2I8U
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: SeeFernando on August 12, 2019, 05:18:29 pm
I'm interested!  I've got real flight 8, so I think that where I'll start lol!

I've got a Yak54 from techone that isn't properly setup, but its definitely more of a 3d plane cause half the chord is aileron...
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 05:18:46 pm
Hi Stephan. Do you think that foamy from HK is big enough to do good maneuvers? Wouldn’t it be too twitchy ? I thought it should be reasonably big to do smooth movements?
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 12, 2019, 05:23:26 pm
The bigger the plane, the more stable it will be ... the more expensive the crash will be too!!
It will be a compromise going smaller but it may allow you to push more without worrying so much.
The smaller ones also allow you to fly indoors, but the larger ones I think will make you feel awesome!!!
It is a hard decision!!
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 05:23:48 pm
I'm interested!  I've got real flight 8, so I think that where I'll start lol!

I've got a Yak54 from techone that isn't properly setup, but its definitely more of a 3d plane cause half the chord is aileron...

Yah. I’ve had eflite inverza.  It was small and also ailerons half the wing. And it was twitchy and almost impossible to fly.  I’ve crashed it every time I was flying it.  Now I want to approach more strategically.  Tired of crashing every flight.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 12, 2019, 05:31:32 pm
The bigger ones are very light relative to their size so they allow you to go much slower, the Inverza I think is more of a 3d sport.
And I think this was one of your first few planes, your skill has increased quite a bit since.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 12, 2019, 05:33:01 pm
Also most 3D pilots have their expo at 50%, I doubt you had that on your Inverza, which may have helped when you have big control surfaces.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 05:38:09 pm
Also most 3D pilots have their expo at 50%, I doubt you had that on your Inverza, which may have helped when you have big control surfaces.

You are right. I had it at 30 or 40 %. 
And every time a struggle.  Need more experience I think and people who will point to mistakes. At least then mistakes not only will cost you but would actually be worth a lesson.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 12, 2019, 05:56:01 pm
I wonder if we could setup a few hours for a group lesson that we could all chip in with a pro to come to TEMAC. Maybe the TEMAC execs have some contacts from the time we had a pro do a show at one of our events??
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: octagon on August 12, 2019, 07:14:24 pm
Hey Vadim, you seemed to have started a thread with a lot of interest. Athol and I have been working on a Sportsman F3A routine. It is kind of an intermediate program with things like Cubans and Point rolls and Stall turns and stuff. The next time we are at the field together you can fly one of my aerobatic planes and see if you like it. One does need to practice, but there are a few basic tenants  that are important in any maneuver for it to be a success. Sort of like golf, if you are not swinging correctly and you keep doing it, the  flawed swing is very hard to correct.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 12, 2019, 07:51:25 pm
That’s a serious approach. If you guys have routine can you please post it here. Last time I saw Athol had a very comprehensive description of every turn printed out. I had a bit of luck calling next turn for him. I hope that triggers lots of interest from everyone just like warwings. 
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Palkina on August 12, 2019, 09:24:27 pm
I am interested. Will have a cheap foamy one to start with.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: octagon on August 13, 2019, 08:11:07 am
Here is the F2A intermediate sequence
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 13, 2019, 08:36:41 am
Thank you Rob,
That is what I've been looking for. Now we can work on the routine and master the skill.


Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Michael on August 13, 2019, 11:18:44 am
Precision is slower and more graceful. Precision planes are considerably easier planes to fly than 3D planes.

I have a pattern plane and would be interested in participating with whatever we/you decide.

The TEMAC annual fun fly is in about 3 weeks. If nothing is organized by then, let's do some sport (fun) pattern flying at the fun fly.

Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Michael on August 13, 2019, 11:20:36 am
3D planes can easily fly pattern style by reducing throws and moving the point of balance slightly forward.

True pattern planes cannot fly 3D.

Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: bweaver on August 13, 2019, 06:29:24 pm
@VadimKirillov  - Great suggestion and a lot of responses showing lots of interest. 

This is an excellent challenge to those wishing to partake in 3D or the precision flying.  I'm more into the 3D because it doesn't show the mistakes I make as much.  Or at least I don't even notice them.  I would be interested in pursuing this further in a more organized manner.

@vicwhit  had built a large profile 1/2 inch laminated blue foam airplane that he 3D'd with for quite some time.  He might be able to post the plans for those who are interested.

The following video illustrates some amazing indoor 3D aerobatics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDxHamYEQNU
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: vicwhit on August 13, 2019, 07:24:31 pm
I would be glad to help anyone crazy enough to risk his precious foam creation. I went through so many crashes and rebuilds that it can't be number.
Note... setting up the plane and transmitter is key in being able to control your airplane. The key is high expo rates, e.g. 60%, and lots of throw to achieve the instant changes in direction and altitude.
It sure would be nice to have an expert show us the basics but until that time I will help out. BTW...we need agreement from all at the field to do these maneuvers close to the runway. Somehow I have been able to fit into the morning group during lulls in activity and staying a little later after they head for lunch.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Frank v B on August 13, 2019, 08:48:09 pm
A couple of observations:

1) The difference between 3D and Precision aerobatics:
      - 3D flies on the prop.  Many maneuvers are below the stall speed of the plane.
      - Precision Aerobatics flies on the wing.  No high Alpha (flying below stall speed)

Two completely different disciplines.

2) At the TEMAC Funfly on Sunday, Sept. 1, I will ask Paul Hepworth to do a full F3A routine during our noon-time demonstration*.  The TEMAC funfly is only a little more than two weeks away.  Photos taken at last year's TEMAC Fun-fly.


Frank

* when Paul first arrived in Canada I was asked to handle his check flight for the Bramalea Club to see if he could fly.  He took off and I said "you're fine" and walked away... at 2' altitude.  Sometimes you just know when to stop being official. ;D  No regrets!  Thanks Paul.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 14, 2019, 04:18:48 pm
Thank you very much guys for support and help with the topic. I 'm so glad that a lot of people are interested in learning and sharing knowledge of 3D and Precision aerobatics.
How about meeting on Saturday and having a show and tell at the field. I will print out maneuvers routine and we can do a bit of training, I would gladly help by calling out next moves.
If there is still no theme for September FunFly, we can discuss competition rules for precision aerobatics for that day.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: AlexShao on August 14, 2019, 10:30:46 pm
Hi, Guys is anyone interested in starting a little 3D / Precision aerobatics club withing TEMAC?
Maybe, some guys who have more experience will help with comments instructions, and it would be great if we can help each other with maneuver calls etc.
Who is interested? let's schedule meeting times and dates, equipment, routines, articles here.

Hi Vadim,

I am interested in precision flight and learning now. I will goto TEMAC field this Saturday at around 2PM with my new F3A plane.
We can discuss on the field.

The difference between Precision flight and 3D is similar with dressage and jumping horse game.






Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Athol on August 16, 2019, 06:02:53 am
Hi Vadim, et al,

I've been interested in Precision Aerobatics since learning to fly the old F3A back in Cape Town, South Africa in the mid/late 1970's.
At this time i"m working on improving my precision by flying the Intermediate Schedule, see:
http://f3acanada.org/canadian-precision-aerobatics-schedules/ and download that for which you wish to fly.
There is also an F3A Contest being hosted by 905 Squadron: https://www.maac.ca/en/events_details.php?type=1&event_id=6569
905 Squadron is proud to host this years Labour Day Precision Aerobatics Contest.
August 31 & Sept 1 2019. MAAC Sanctioned event involving all Pattern Classes: Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced, Masters and F.A.I.


I am happy to get involved in and encouraging participation in Precision Aerobatics and right now, I have an FMS Olympus F3A aeroplane as well as a Skywing 55" Edge 540.  The Edge is actually a 3D aeroplane but have just a wee bit of interest in 3D

For the Sportsman and Intermediate Schedule, any "well trimmed and straight flying" plane will work for this.

Cheers

Athol
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: mawz on August 17, 2019, 12:53:39 pm
I'm interested in the Precision Aerobatics side myself, albeit my interested is in old-fashioned Pattern Flying rather than modern F3A (IE SPA style flying and 80's Ballistic Pattern)
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: bweaver on August 17, 2019, 05:18:46 pm
@Athol RE: For the Sportsman and Intermediate Schedule, any "well trimmed and straight flying" plane will work for this.
This aircraft qualification counts most of us out - especially me.  I was hoping to learn how to make my planes become well trimmed, so that they will fly straight. 

Where was everyone today?  I thought we were getting together to get the ball rolling/the planes flying, the skills improved...

Anyways, because there weren't many out this p.m. I was assisted by Stephan, Simon and Ken with getting my hovering abilities tuned in...

It's too bad so many missed this skillful demonstration, because I was able to hold this hover for ever, until my coaches and assistant Stephan got tired and board.  But fortunately, Simon was able to capture this amazing feat on film.  See evidence below.

Try again tomorrow.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Oscar on August 17, 2019, 05:25:51 pm
With rain, strong wind and Tornado warning, its better to reschedule our first gathering.  Will Sunday afternoon (around 2pm) works for everyone?
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Athol on August 17, 2019, 05:35:10 pm
Hi guys,

I won't make it tomorrow  ???
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 17, 2019, 07:23:45 pm
Yeh weather forecast for today was so confusing.  No winds but a tornado warning. Rain and no rain changing every minute.  It was really hard to predict. But at least I got an acrobatic airplane and got it ready for flying. So I will go tomorrow rain or shine and take my chances with the weather.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: bweaver on August 17, 2019, 08:21:39 pm
Observational skills - ZERO, 0, NADDA, NONE, ABSENT!  :P
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: sihinch on August 17, 2019, 09:09:48 pm
I think your 3D hovering skills are amazing Bruce!
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: bweaver on August 17, 2019, 09:47:07 pm
Simon it's like the plane was just being hung up there for me...  Amazing, I couldn't have done it without everyone's assistance.  ::)
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Athol on August 17, 2019, 10:08:44 pm
Good Job Bruce - I look forward to you teaching me  :D
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: BrunoS on August 17, 2019, 10:15:22 pm
I suggest the IMAC Basic 2019 sequence as a good way to get into precision aerobatics. You can download it from the IMAC web site: http://www.mini-iac.org/Downloads (http://www.mini-iac.org/Downloads). The maneuvers are shown as Aresti symbols (same as used for full size aerobatic competition) that are described here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aresti_Catalog (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aresti_Catalog). The Basic 2019 is a sequence of classic maneuvers that are both simple to execute and difficult to execute well. I fly the Basic 2018 sequence at least twice (usually 3-4 times) every time I fly.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: Crazyflyer on August 18, 2019, 06:59:34 am
Simon it's like the plane was just being hung up there for me...  Amazing, I couldn't have done it without everyone's assistance.  ::)

Glad I could "give you hand" Bruce   ;D
Stephan
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: BrunoS on August 18, 2019, 07:48:22 am
This is a better Wikipedia page on Aresti symbols and the aerobatic maneuvers they represent than the one I cited in my previous post: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver)
This page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_aerobatics (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition_aerobatics) describes full scale aerobatic competitions, in particular the aerobatic box that is also used in IMAC competitions and is part of a well-flown aerobatic sequence.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: BrunoS on August 18, 2019, 08:28:03 am
High alpha or 3D aerobatics are different from precision. Here the emphasis is making the airplane do wild and crazy things mostly close to the ground in a mostly stalled attitude, relying on the engine thrust alone to keep the airplane in the air. “Precision” in this case means “don’t crash” ;) Maneuvers have names such as “the wall”, “harrier roll”, “blender” and “elevator”. Here is a video of a Joe Nall 2019 noon demonstration by Jason Dussia that shows what I mean: https://youtu.be/NnFXbJO9EiM (https://youtu.be/NnFXbJO9EiM).
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: bweaver on August 18, 2019, 08:36:35 am
Simon it's like the plane was just being hung up there for me...  Amazing, I couldn't have done it without everyone's assistance.  ::)

Glad I could "give you hand" Bruce   ;D
Stephan

@Crazyflyer Sorry that your assistance wasn't so evident.  It is going to be a difficult feat to duplicate.

(Let's try one more time.)
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 18, 2019, 09:02:42 am
Observational skills - ZERO, 0, NADDA, NONE, ABSENT!  :P

Hey BRUCE of course we have observational skills. We admire you for your piloting. But then again considering you are a CFI we expect you to fly at least 4 of 3D airplanes at the same time. You have enough students assistance.  🤣😎👨‍✈️
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: bweaver on August 18, 2019, 09:04:22 am
@BrunoS As part of the morning crew, your father (Bruno senior) entertained us with his routine and 3D flying skills everyday he was out with us.  His smooth flying and precision control over his aircraft hasn't been duplicated by any of us.

I know you have tremendous skills in this area as well.  It would be greatly appreciated if you could come out and provide some group assistance and guidance if your time permits.  There is a lot of serious interests in this regard. (All kidding aside)

Thanks for sharing the posts above.  I look forward to seeing you at the field.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 18, 2019, 09:05:10 am
Thank you BrunoS. For your input. 
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: BrunoS on August 18, 2019, 08:55:07 pm
Thank you Bruce for your comments. I am by no means an expert aerobatics pilot. I’m still working on the IMAC Basic sequence. I have picked up some knowledge about the maneuvers in the IMAC sequences from serious competitors at the RC400 club. By serious I mean guys that travel 100s of km to IMAC contests in Ontario, Quebec and the U.S., compete at the Intermediate and Advanced levels and win.

I would be glad to help where I can. Please let me know when you all want to meet.
Title: Re: 3D/ Precision Aerobatic interest Club
Post by: VadimKirillov on August 20, 2019, 11:17:52 am
I'm Adding Reference links to the first Comment, documents, etc. that could help understanding aerobatics. please post interesting resources that you find and I will report them in the first comment so that everyone can find it easier.