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Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club (TEMAC) => Building / Construction => Topic started by: Frank v B on March 23, 2020, 10:01:01 pm

Title: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 23, 2020, 10:01:01 pm
I cancelled all work this week for Covid reasons.  Over 50 of my good customers are medical doctors so I am on call for their home emergencies while they are on call to help save us.

Time to follow our fearless leader Michael again and build with sticks.  The main message is "if you are close to balsa, you are practising social distancing."  ;)

The Guillows Arrow- 28" span, rubber conversion to RC electric.  The preliminary plan is to build it and see the size of the fuse and then figure out how to power it.  I have about 5 small motors and esc's that could fit.

I bought the kit at the London Swap meet for about $8.00 which will match my income for this week. >:(

Frank

Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: BJROB on March 24, 2020, 11:25:21 am
Hey Frank this looks good :)
I really like the build by numbers idea... ;D
Could you show how that looks so we can make sure that you are following the numerical order :'(
Yes for you power builders have your order of build,,,, but,,,,  :P
Us (me) beginners would  follow the numerical order.... 8)
Just trying to put a challenge ::)
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 24, 2020, 09:08:04 pm
Cutting sticks.  Built the two fuse sides.

Funny how they have a "left" and "right".... because sometimes we need to be told. ;D

Frank

ps: the reason for the green tape on the knife handle- to stop it from rolling.
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 25, 2020, 11:02:16 am
Just about to join the fuselage halves.

Those of you who have built these stick and tissue planes know that it is always a 1.5 build (BJ?, Vadim?).  Build and then re-build what you have just broken.
Added sticks across the grain of the formers to keep them from dumb-thumbs.

Frank
 
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 25, 2020, 03:51:58 pm
- fuse sides glued together, most of the formers in place.
- the round nose former was laminated on both sides with 1/32 ply so the motor can be screwed in place.

Once I get some of the stringers in place, I will start to figure out the motor and electronics.
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 25, 2020, 08:25:59 pm
The radio challenge.  A perspective.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: bweaver on March 25, 2020, 08:30:05 pm
The radio challenge.  A perspective.

Frank


What, are your fingers stuck where the radio equipment is going? You'll be able to get them out.

I've seen you install radio equipment is much smaller models.  Carry on!
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: GuyOReilly on March 26, 2020, 07:46:08 am
The radio challenge.  A perspective
The new and improved 4-finger salute!
Guy
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 26, 2020, 12:35:01 pm
Carrying on per Bruce...

Decided on the electronics from my horde collection of equipment.

Two Bluebird 303 servos, a brand new 6 amp, 2S max ESC and an AR6100 Spectrum receiver.  Total weight 17 grams or .6 oz.
To battle the breakage and allow the servos to be mounted, I lined the RC bay with 1/32 balsa, both sides and the bottom.

Photo 66- the electronics on the weigh scale.
Photo 67- the clamps hold the RX bay liner 1/32" balsa.
Photo 68- the radio equipment next to a nickel..... which is about my income this week. :'(

Once the plane is fully built I will decide on the power.  Yes, Simon, it will be electric.  Rubber power is waayyy too limiting. ;)

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: VadimKirillov on March 27, 2020, 10:40:42 am
Just about to join the fuselage halves.

Those of you who have built these stick and tissue planes know that it is always a 1.5 build (BJ?, Vadim?).  Build and then re-build what you have just broken.
Added sticks across the grain of the formers to keep them from dumb-thumbs.

Frank

you are very optimistic about 1.5 build factor, mine is closer to 2.5  ???  carpenters glue is a good choice for Isolation time, you get to see the glue dry...
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 27, 2020, 10:55:00 am
Vadim,

re: "2.5"  My posts are not meant to be a truth serum.  The main thing is you crossed the finish line.  I'm still looking for it on this project. ;)

Photos show the servos in place.  I glued them to a piece of 3/32 balsa, let it cure.  Then glued the balsa to the fuse side.  Then glued all the stringers in place.  Stringers are the long thin fingery breaky parts.  The firewall is also in place.

Photo 69- shows the servos in place and the balsa stand-offs to which they are glued. Note the green clamps.  I love these.  They have a very light hold (no crush!).  You just have to cut the little registration point off each side of the gripper.  Dollarama $1.25 for two sizes, 15 clamps.  Best deal ever.
Note the tiny pink file.  It came in very handy to file the stringer slots.  From the Japanese Two Dollar store.
 
Photo 70- shows the stringers in place. Note the black foam in the bottom left.  I cut a piece off and stuffed it between the servos to gently push them up against the fuse side while the glue dried.  Couldn't get clamps down that far without crushing the balsa.

The wing and tail feathers are next.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 27, 2020, 01:26:34 pm
The wing.

This kit tells you to follow the numbers* to establish the build sequence.  It wants you to start at one leading edge and work your way around the perimeter of the wing (right leading edge, left leading edge, two wingtip pieces, left trailing edge, right trailing edge, two right wingtip pieces)....then install the ribs on top of the bottom spar.  It will never work out because:

1) the wood is never exactly the same size as the plan
2) the die crushed ribs are never accurate.

Here is how I do it:
1) pin the leading edges in place
2) use two ribs, one at each end of each wing panel and push the trailing edge up to them.  Pin the TE in place..regardless of what the plan says.  Just pin the TE parallel to the drawing.
3) then install the two tip parts
4) install the centre lower spar where the slot is in the rib, regardless of what the plan indicates.
5) glue all the ribs in place.

Guaranteed all the joints will be tight.

The photo shows the perimeter pinned in place and the two ribs used to locate the trailing edge.

Frank

* Bruce thinks I can't follow the number sequence because I can't count past 21.
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: bweaver on March 27, 2020, 05:07:03 pm
Re: Guaranteed all the joints will be tight. They usually become tight after the glue cures anyways. For those of us who may do things differently, we may use various viscosities of glues.  Results the same? Maybe not quite, but nearly.

Re: * Bruce thinks I can't follow the number sequence because I can't count past 21. Bruce knows Frank can only count to 21 when totally naked.  Frank's difficulty counting up to 21 comes when he is fully clothed wearing mitts and shoes.  (With fingerless mitts and sandals, he can manage to 20.)

Frank, why do you ask for it?  :-\  ::)
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 27, 2020, 05:26:34 pm
Bruce:

re: "Frank, why do you ask for it? "

..for the same reason you took the bait... because it is there.

Comic Covid Relief!! ;D


Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 27, 2020, 08:13:47 pm
The wing is drying.

Once it is dry, the polyhedral breaks will be set.

Now off to do the stabilizer and rudder.  I have to add the moving parts (rudder, elevator) since the plans do not show them.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 27, 2020, 10:27:17 pm
Tail feathers:

Fin/rudder- The shape stayed the same, the fin bottoms were left long so I can secure it better.  Note that all balsa strips are left long and are easier to trim afterwards.

Stabilizer/elevator- this is a lifting stab (airfoiled).  I used the original outline of the entire stab then put in a double piece of balsa to create the hinge line.  All ribs were notched over the new wood and glued.  A "V" was built into the center of the elevator to allow the rudder to clear it.  Again, all edges will be trimmed after the stab dries.  When dry, I will have to fill in the trailing edge of the stab and leading edge of the elevator to fill in between the ribs.

Photo 76- all circular cut tip parts for the wing, stab and rudder were coated with glue on the inside and outside of the balsa piece.  Wood always splits along the grain.  This strengthens the wood.  I used carpenters glue and a toothpick.

Photo 77- the stab before the spars are added.

Photo 78- The fin and rudder.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 28, 2020, 11:05:03 am
Bending the wingtip part of the polyhedral wing.  The leading and trailing edges were pre-cut at this "break".  Removed the pins, lifted up the tip to the height of the pre-cut stick and glued the joint.  Both sides.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 28, 2020, 03:46:17 pm
Setting the main polyhedral break.

Photo 83- removed the center rib, put glue between the joints in the leading edge, trailing edge and the scissored two top spars and then re-assembled.
Photo 84- set the midwing break using the brace.  Put a pin in the leading edge and trailing edge to keep the joint together.


Frank
Title: inspired :)
Post by: pmackenzie on March 28, 2020, 03:48:42 pm
Had this kit for a while, you inspired me to start on it :)
Started this morning, here is how far I have it.

Mine will be be rubber powered.
Hopefully I can get it trimmed well enough to lose it at some point (but not too soon).

Pretty sure it was a Toldeo swap shop buy.

I have quite a few FF kits in my "one of these days" pile. Rubber was always one of my favorite model types, so long overdue to get some of them built.


Pat MacKenzie
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 28, 2020, 03:57:48 pm
Pat,

Good for you! 
The main difference between yours and mine... yours will be a work of art. 8).  Mine will observe the 50/10 rule*.

Building this kit was a total recall of the first stick and tissue rubber band plane I built when I was in grade 3.  It was a Veron kit and it flew all of 15'...but that was magic and as good as a mile.

Frank

* looks fine at 50 feet and 10 km/h.  If it makes it to 50 km/h...it will be self-shredding. :D
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 28, 2020, 09:57:41 pm
Stab and Fin/rudder

- Cut them apart (elevator from stabilizer, rudder from fin) and sanded them.
- trimmed the ribs flush with the trailing edge
- built up the trailing edge of the stab and leading edge of the elevator.

Photo 85- shows stab and elevator separated with the leading and trailing edges built up and pinned while the glue dries.
Photo 86- Fin and rudder completed.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 29, 2020, 10:20:42 am
Sanded the wing and tail feathers.  Even with careful sanding, a leading edge and a trailing edge glue joint failed at outboard dihedral breaks.

DA FIX:
Watered down a little carpenters glue, brushed it on the bottom of each of the trailing and leading edge breaks, put on a few strands of kevlar and put waxed paper on top to flatten them out.  All 6 of them.

The kevlar strands are as fine as silk and the same colour as the glue.

If this plane ever goes into a dive, it will be 6 joints flying in formation as the wing shreds in between them. ;D


Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: pmackenzie on March 29, 2020, 01:40:06 pm
Some more pics of my progress, starting to look like a plane :)

I had trouble with the rear turtle desk formers, they were simply not the correct width to fit where the plans show. 
The fuzzy image shows how distorted the rear part of the fuse was with them installed. So I removed them, completed the fuse with cross braces and then made new ones.
Looks much better now.

It  looks to me like the card-stock fill pieces they call for above the wing won't work properly, the cut out is too deep so it needs to be one piece.
Not sure how I am going to tackle that yet, perhaps mould some 1/32 balsa to the same curve as the fuse,  and carefully trim it till it fits the wing?
Same thing for the cockpit cut-out would be nicer that card-stock.

Also thinking of adding a pop-up DT. That would let me adjust stab incidence and tilt, which is often necessary to get proper trim between power on and power off.
The plans show some details for the glow conversion, but I would do it slightly different.

Pat MacKenzie

Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 29, 2020, 01:53:39 pm
Looks great Pat. I will make the bent stuff out of 1/32 balsa.  Cardboard shouldn't be on a balsa model.  :-)

Found a small motor.  Will start on the light end.  Otherwise I will switch to an E-Flite 180.  A great little motor.

The covering is next.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: pmackenzie on March 29, 2020, 01:59:16 pm
That looks like ether the HK 10 gram, or perhaps 5 gram motor?
If the former, it will have plenty of power for this size/weight model.
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 29, 2020, 03:36:22 pm
It's probably the 5 gram.  I took a photo of the 15 gram one (was still in the package) next to the one on the plane.  I googled Hextronic 5 gram and it looks like the one. 
Thanks for the ID.  The stats show it as a 2 amp max on 2 cells a whopping 15 watts.
Both motors came from a good friend who exited the hobby. 

It is easy enough to change and upgrade at any time.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: GuyOReilly on March 29, 2020, 03:45:00 pm
Looking forward to seeing this stick-project covered and painted.
Great looking plane!
Guy
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: pmackenzie on March 29, 2020, 07:49:52 pm
Things are slowing down now, it takes me a lot of time to decide on things :)

Started working on the 1/32 balsa parts for the fill over the wing and the cockpit cut out.
First step was to form some stock over a 1.25" aluminum tube:
   - soak the parts
   - bend around the tube and wrap with tensor bandage
   - put in the oven on low for about 1 hour. (This could be skipped and just left to dry overnight)

First picture shows the result.

Then start cutting the parts to length and width till they fit where they belong.
Second picture shows the cockpit part in place and glued up, over-wing one is just sitting in place.
I will cut the cockpit opening after the glue has dried.

Fitting the wing fairing will be tricky, sneaking up on the final shapes.  I think I will add some centre sheeting to the wing to make it easier.
I estimate about 1/2 gram additional weight, but the final result will be much nicer than just gluing it to the tissue. Plus I can use a bit of filler if I have to :)
Sheeting will be about 1/2 a rib bay either side of the centre, so I will also have to add ribs on each end of it.

If mine were an R/C conversion where the 1/2 gram would be irrelevant I would not hesitate to add the sheeting  ;)
I will save the 1/2 gram somewhere else, lighter wheels and/or prop for example.

Pat MacKenzie

Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 29, 2020, 09:22:40 pm
Took your advice Pat and sheeted the center section with 1/32.   I did 2 complete bays, one each side of the center rib. A half bay looked too silly and a bit like building a bridge halfway across a river. :)
Did the cockpit in 1/32 balsa.

Photo 92- the cockpit
Photo 93- the wing center section (top only).  I had already covered the bottom before dinner.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 30, 2020, 10:59:59 am
Next problem- the tail feathers.

How do you attach a fin to a stab when it is just supposed to be glued on top of a rib?

What is missing is both a secure anchor point and a flat spot to attach the stab covering to at the base of the fin.

I slotted two pieces of 1/16 balsa where the two top spars are located, slipped the wood up from the bottom and glued them to either side of the centre rib.  This created a 1/16" high slot into which the fin slips.  It also allows the covering to be fastened to these false ribs.

If I were to do it over again, I would have installed two centre ribs, 1/16" apart and extended the bottom of the fin with slots for the two spars.  Oh well.

Photo 95- The two pieces of wood attached to the centre rib
Photo 96- The slot sanded and the fin adjusted.
Photo 97- the fin held in the slot (no glue yet).

Will cover all the parts separately and then assemble once everything is hinged.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: pmackenzie on March 30, 2020, 02:46:03 pm
Some more progress on mine.

To save weight I only wanted just enough centre sheeting to have material for the fairing to rest on.
I added two ribs, cut out using the scrap material from the kit as a template.

Then the 1/32 sheet fill was dry fitted. The way the spars overlap made for some strange angles and gaps, the latter were filled in after the sheeting was glued in.
For the front parts I was able to use some leftovers of the 1/32 formed sheet, the radius was just about perfect :)

In a similar way I also added a small area of sheeting on the front of the stab, to allow for the pop -up D/T.

Next up was to fit the fairing. The formers at the front and back were glued in earlier.
 A fine point sharpie is close to the correct offset, so I simply held the fairing on top of the wing and layed the sharpie span wise and traced the airfoil onto the fairing.
(No picture, hope you can understand what I mean)
The excess was cut away, and the shape was close but  the fairing was sitting too high. Lots of sanding, test fitting, and the final fit is pretty good.
It is just resting in place in the picture, not glued to the wing yet. I still have to decide if I do this before or after covering.

As far as the rudder/stab joint, I think built to plans the joint between the rudder and the back of the fuse would provide most of the strength.
 Because I want to have the pop-up stab, I am in a similar position that you are. The front sheeting on the stab will help, but I might double up the centre rib as well.

Very close to the point of starting to cover, but that might have to wait for a warmer day so I can crack open the shop door to let the dope fumes out.
Even though I am building in the garage, normally I would wait till no one else was home. But given what is going on, that might not be for quite a while.

I do have some "Risteen microlite" covering, a plastic film designed as a substitute for tissue and dope. But I think I will stick with the more traditional (and smelly) method :)

Here is a link, but I don't know if Skyhooks and Riggings is still in business. Anyone know? "Back in the day" it was one of the "go to" places for R/C micro indoor.
http://skyhooks.ca/covers.htm

Pat MacKenzie
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 30, 2020, 04:57:26 pm
Pat,
The cover over top of the wing looks really neat.  Still have to tackle mine.

Finished the covering.  This stuff is really light but easy to work with and very forgiving.  The colour scheme is not what I wanted but started with the wings and then realized I only had enough to cover the wings.  Wanted to split the reddish colour between the wing and the stab for visibility.

Used covering for the hinges.  The stab worked out well except the hinge could only be on the bottom because of the curve on the top surface from the center to the tips.

Now for final assembly.

I have decided not to add the landing gear because it would rip the fuse apart on anything but a perfect landing.... which are perfectly scarce. ;)
It will also save a lot of windage and weight just in case the 5 gram motor is marginal.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: GuyOReilly on March 30, 2020, 05:43:15 pm
Love the colours!
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: pmackenzie on March 30, 2020, 06:24:58 pm
Frank, what covering are you using? Must be fairly light to work on such a light structure.
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 30, 2020, 06:41:59 pm
Pat,

I don't know the brand or make.  It did have backing plastic that was 3x as thick as the covering film!!  It came on rolls (not flat like Solarfilm Lite).  The only clue is that I found the empty paper tubes they were rolled onto.  One paper roll measured 24" wide, the other one was 26 1/4".  It came to me in a bundle of left-overs about 10 years ago that a friend gave to me when he exited the hobby.

It is much, much easier to work with than Monokote or Solarfilm.  It is about half the weight of transparent Monokote.  Two brands I have used in the past were Micalite and Microlite but that was years ago.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 31, 2020, 11:08:44 am
Starting the final assembly.

Photo 01- glued on the stab.  Set the plane 90 degrees to the countertop edge, removed the covering at the leading edge and trailing edge, put a dab of 5 minute epoxy on the exposed balsa in both places and set it on the fuse.  Easy to see it is at right angles and level.

Note: in the photo it showed it was not quite at 90 degrees so I went back and adjusted it.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: davidk on March 31, 2020, 12:12:43 pm
You guys make the prettiest planes.  :)
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 31, 2020, 12:22:57 pm
David,  Thank you.  The lower our standards, the better it looks. ;D

Mistake!!
Tried to install the rudder and fin.  The stab is too far forward.  The bottom of the rudder hits the fuse.  Glued it in place anyway and will shorten the fuselage when the glue dries.

Frank
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: Frank v B on March 31, 2020, 03:42:34 pm
Connecting the pushrods.

On delicate planes, my favourite method is to cut horns from 1/32 plywood
- cut it with scissors and punch holes with a pin
- cut a slot in the wood on both the elevator and rudder with a #11 blade.  Slide it back and forth so the back side (thick) of the blade widens the slot
- center the servo with a servo tester
- center the elevator.  I used a balsa stick with a rubber band to hold it in the neutral position
- attach the pushrod to the servo
- bend the pushrod near where the horn is going to be.
- slip the plywood horn onto the pushrod
- a dab of 5 minute epoxy onto the slot and plywood horn.  It will automatically center itself.
- let it cure.  No adjustments necessary.  Automatically centered.

Next- install the motor and radio.

Photo 03-- the tail, the fin/rudder and the two plywood horns.
Photo 08 - shows the balsa and rubber band holding the elevator in neutral and the horns in place and drying.
Title: Re: More sticks! Frank's Guillows Arrow RC.... Covid build
Post by: GuyOReilly on March 31, 2020, 03:53:34 pm
Glued it in place anyway and will shorten the fuselage when the glue dries.
You will save a ton of weight by reducing the fuselage length, good decision!   ;)