Well here we go again! I've decided to build the Short Solent Mk IV ... at this point I'm leaning toward the livery of ZK-AMO "Aranui" which used to be operated by Tasman Empire Airways Limited (TEAL) which was the forerunner of Air New Zealand.
TEAL operated a total of five Solent 4s between 1949 and 1960 on their scheduled routes between Sydney, Fiji and Auckland. The last TEAL Solent service was flown between Fiji and Tahiti on 14 September 1960 by ZK-AMO "Aranui", which is now preserved at the Museum of Transport and Technology in Auckland.
SOLENT HISTORY
The Solent history is quite convoluted since it was one of a few derivatives of the Empire boat S.23. This original was later developed into the improved but externally similar S.30. Later they did three larger S.26 boats, Golden Hind, golden Fleece and Golden Horn
The S.25 was the Sunderland I, which has a lot in common with the smaller S.25 / S.30 Empire boats, but has a deeper hull plus the obvious militarization. Later Marks I and II went through various minor equipment / engine / armament upgrades.
Sunderland III was really the definitive machine - it has the step taken out of the hull chine, in favor of a nice sweeping curve - water and air drag reduced. I was fortunate to do an actual "walk through" tour of one of these behemoths during my visit to the RAF museum in London in March of 2013. (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/collections/short-sunderland-mr5
The Hythe and Sandringham were civilian conversions of existing Sunderland airframes. The Sunderland IV (type S.45) was a bit bigger than the I to III, and renamed Seaford, only 8 built. The Sunderland V was basically a III with Twin Wasps instead of Pegasus engines. Some of these became Sandringhams.
The Solent is type S.45a, a civilian development of the larger Seaford (Sunderland IV). The derivatives can be summarized thus:
S.23: First Empire flying boat series.
S.30: Improved Empire flying boat series.
S.26: Further improved Empire flying boat
Sunderland Mk.I: Initial Sunderland production variant.
Sunderland Mk.II: More powerful engines & armament.
Sunderland Mk.III: Revised hull configuration.
Sunderland Mk.V: Twin Wasp instead of Pegasus radials
Seaford: Sunderland Mk.IV, better armament.
Hythe: Passenger conversion of Sunderland Mk.III.
Sandringham Mk.I: Improved passenger mod, Pegasus engines
Sandringham Mk.II: Improved passenger mod, Twin Wasp engines.
Solent Mk.2: Passenger version of Seaford
Solent Mk.3: Seaford conversions to passenger use
Solent Mk.4: Seaford conversions to passenger use
(Referenced from http://www.airvectors.net/avsund.html)
Have I lost you yet? Eyes glazed and bloodshot? Lol!
Bottom line is this. The Short Solent is very similar to the Short Sandringham. (since they're like cousins I guess!) It is slightly (2 feet) wider in the hull but the main visual difference is the sweep up to the fin, the use of spinners, the nacelles (larger air intakes top and bottom) and tip floats with spread struts.
I decided on this model because I LOVE the look of the plane, it just seems to have great presence. It's gonna be a bit more of a challenge than the CL-415 in some ways (plans are not scale) and I think easier in others. (not so much finicky bits as far as I can see)
This is gonna be based on Ivan Pettigrew's plans. Scale 1/14.5 Span 100 inches. Wing area 1,200 sq. ins. Length 74 inches. I say "based on" because Ivan is known for rather boxy designs (not so scale as I mentioned before) and incredibly light airframes. It is my intention/goal (as this stage! Lol!) to make this as scale as humanly possible, so I suspect that there will be major additions/modifications to his plans.
Typically his Solents are built to weigh around EIGHT pounds ... I'm hoping to come in at fifteen pounds. Since this aircraft has a wing area of 1200sq inches, at fifteen pounds that's a wing cube loading of 10! Therefore she should fly like a trainer at 15 pounds.
About to order a truckload of wood and all the other stuff that make this sort of stuff possible and I must say it's a somewhat daunting prospect! However I'm up for the challenge and now that I have the experience gained from the 415 I think I should be able to pull it off. ;) Based on my experience last time and the lessons learned (re: duration of build!) I intend to start October 1st 2014 to finish May 1st 2015! Now based on my history with deadlines, don't hold me to it, but it is my intention! Lol!
Colin
P.S. The first pic is of the full size. The second is of a model that I hope to emulate.
Like you could fool us, Colin. We know this is just an excuse for another holiday, this time new Zealand, to photograph the original.
Check out the museum guys it may have examples you would like photographed.
Jack.
This is going to be so cool!
I'll have my Sandringham flying again for the Spring, and I hope to have my Stranraer ready too. Michael will have the Albatross ready, Glenn will hopefully have a new Schneider Trophy racer ready, and we will have to two water bombers flying together. Wow! I wonder what else will be ready for the float fly's next year!
Quote from: Papa on September 03, 2014, 11:13:10 AM
Like you could fool us, Colin. We know this is just an excuse for another holiday, this time new Zealand, to photograph the original.
I wish Jack! That's actually one of my dream destinations ... but the cost is KILLER! Hopefully one day cause my wife actually has family there.
Colin
Wow! That a beautiful airplane.
Quote from: wollins on September 03, 2014, 11:01:20 AM
I intend to start October 1st 2014 to finish May 1st 2015!
Based on my reference photos (see vid) I have already modified my deadline to now read like this:
I intend to start October 1st 2014 to finish
whenever I get done! lol!
http://youtu.be/TUXiECmRnFQ
Colin
Colin,
Wonderful airplane choice! Love the build schedule!
I need some help identifying six "objects" on the plane. I figured if I'm gonna try to replicate stuff I should at least know what they are! lol! I'm gonna do a separate post for each of them with their accompanying pics ... just so it doesn't get too confusing. If anyone can ID these I'd appreciate it. I'm gonna post a specific pic of each and then another pic of it in its general location ... so as to give some context.
First off is something that looks to me like some sort of antenna? It's located on both sides of the fuse in the same spot.
Colin
Next up is a couple of pics of something I can't even guess at. Again located in the exact same position on both sides of fuse.
Next up is a couple of pics of something that looks like an antenna with lights? Again I can't even guess at. Located at the top just behind the cockpit?
Next up is three pics of some sort of grill located on only the RIGHT wing on the leading edge, near the fuse.
Next up is some sort of bubble dome. Located on the top of the fuse somewhat behind the cockpit?
Last is a couple of oblong black topped domes also at the top of fuse near the bubble dome.
The "H" shaped thing is probably a directional antenna for detecting radio beams for navigation.
The Dome was to allow celestial shots also for navigation during dark.
The two brass bars on the tail, probably static discharge contacts.
The wing intake probably for fresh air for the cabin, routed past a heater from the engine.
The slotted thing near the "H" antenna possibly a stale air extractor from the cabin.
The black domes possibly inspection points for the control surface cables.
Jack.
Had another look at the black domes and since they are over the cabin they are more likely radio or navigation instrument covers.
Jack.
OK on further research, ain't retirement wonderful, the two brass tubes are pitot tubes. Short has done this on most of it's flying boats.
They also took in fresh air through the wing and also in front of the windscreen. The opening in the wing might also be an oil cooler inlet being so close to the engines.
Jack.
Nice answers, Jack.
I just figured these are thing added to the full size, for modeller to replicate so they have something to knock off while walking through doors and putting the plane in the car. No?
Quote from: piker on September 05, 2014, 10:45:32 AM
Nice answers, Jack.
I just figured these are thing added to the full size, for modeller to replicate so they have something to knock off while walking through doors and putting the plane in the car. No?
lol! You gave me a good laugh today with that one! I thought the same thing ... I can hardly get the 415 (fuse length 50") upstairs from the basement without jamming it on something much less this one at 75"! Anyways, just exploring my options here ... the fragile ones I can probably mount using small rare earth magnets to minimise damage.
BTW, thanks a lot Jack ... can always count on you for valuable info!
Colin
I'm sure the two black domes on top house radio and loran antennae.
The stream lined piece on the upper side just in front of the cockpit is most likely an exhaust chimney for the galley that was located just below
@piker @wollins . The kitchen prepared fresh cooked meals, in flight, and had a range and stove and would need an extractor to pull fumes outside.
If you look at the black strip behind the stove there are two round openings that could be just such exhausts.
Jack.
(http://friendsofthesolentflyingboat.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/interior-shot-21.jpg)
And so it begins ... this came today. I guess now I have to order some wood. Methinks I'll need a tree's worth! :o ;D
Colin
The nice thing about Ivan's super light build concept is that there's not a lot of wood in the plane. Just a bunch of sticks. :)
You guys have me thinking about taking on an Ivan seaplane build this winter. Unlike Colin, I want to start with a fixed end date in mind, so I'm considering something a little bit simpler -- the 480 size Twin Otter (I like the fact the laser cut parts are available). And yes, Rob, I'll put floats on it!
SAAAWEEET!!! ;D
Getting up my wood order. When do you use basswood over spruce and vice versa ... and what the heck is the difference between the two? ;D
Colin
It depends on what's common to the designers location.
Spruce is the more common and can be used in place of basswood.
My preference is for OBECHI but I'm old fashioned that way.
Jack.
Wow that will be super!!!
Quote from: piker on September 08, 2014, 01:24:43 PM
The nice thing about Ivan's super light build concept is that there's not a lot of wood in the plane. Just a bunch of sticks. :)
When have you known me to follow a plan? ;)
National Balsa Wood list: (CDN $230)
3/16 x 3/16 x 48 sticks - 20
1/8 x 3/16th x 48 sticks - 8
1/4 x 4 x 48 sheet - 2
1/16th x 4 x 36 sheet medium/soft - 18
1/16th x 4 x 36 sheet medium/soft (rib stock) - 4
3/32 sheet x 3 x 36 m/s - 8
3/32 sheet hard x 3 x 36 - 6
3/32 sheet x 3 x36 (rib stock) - 4
LE/TE stock ¼ X 1 X 48 - 5
LE/TE stock 5/16/ x 1 1 /4 x 48 - 5
1/8x1/8 x 48 spruce - 4
3/32 – 12x12 birch ply - 2
1/16 – 12x48 birch ply
Miscellaneous
¼ x ¼ x 36 balsa Triangle - 2
3/8 x 3/8 x 36 balsa Triangle - 2
3 X 3 X 12 Balsa block - 1
holy smokes that is a lot of balsa ... guessing it would have been cheaper to buy a lumber mill ;)
Go to Exotic Woods in Burlington and buy logs. You can cut it down on a band saw or a table saw with a thin kerf blade.. Much cheaper and you will be sanding it on the model anyway. http://www.exotic-woods.com/product.aspx?s=balsa
jack.
Quote from: battlestu on September 15, 2014, 03:09:38 PM
holy smokes that is a lot of balsa
That's what I thought ... but truth be told there are some extras in there for a couple of extra planes. (did someone say "Morphine"? ;) )
Nice! Lot's of nice, fresh wood to start the winter build!
After a lot of research, I've decided to either go with the OMEGA 870 motors or the TURNIGY G-25 870KV motors. The Omegas are better but twice as expensive so I'm leaning towards the Turnigys. :) Will also be using Turnigy Nano 4S 3000mah packs.
My numbers work out to:
41A x 15V X 4 = 2480W = 165w per pound at my goal weight of 15lbs. I'm estimating this should yield about 9 minutes of scale fight.
Colin
Oops I meant G32's. (was looking at the wrong note) So the correct numbers are:
33A x 16V X 4 = 2112W = 140w per pound at my goal weight of 15lbs. I'm estimating this should yield about 11 minutes of scale fight.
140w/lb = SCALE FLIGHT????!!!!
40w/lb would offer scale flight :)
Quarter throttle is for flying/cruising. 140/watts a pound is for taking off from grass. (and 2015 nooner racing ;))
Trying to source spinners with the scale shape I'm looking for and coming up empty. Can anyone help? They kinda/sorta look like a P-51 spinner shape in that they're somewhat more "blunt" or rounded at the ends. (see pics)
Colin
I guess you'll have to make your own. :)
Damn, I hate making spinners. It's gonna be a particularly big PITA cause I'll have to get all four perfectly similar.
Ok so my goal is to make this as scale as I possibly can. (more so than the CL- 415) I'm talking panel lines, rivets ... the whole nine yards. Most importantly though ... is to get the right scale shape and profile. Ivan's planes are well known for how great they fly and how light they are ... however they are equally well known for not being very scale.
The first pic is an example of a typical Ivan's Solent's nose. The left image in the second pic shows Ivan's rudder going all the way down to the fuse whereas the full size's rudder (right image) does not. The sharp lines of the nose of Ivan's Solent shown in the first pic, extend throughout the whole plane. This makes it somewhat boxy looking and generally very angular. I'd like to achieve the smooth rounded curves of the full size. (also shown in the model in pic number 3)
So what does this mean in practical terms? Extensive modifications. And what does that entail? Much pondering ... which means time ... lots of time. :( Brace yourselves for another long one and hopefully the finished product will make up for the possibility that I will bore you to death along the way. ;D A little bit of a concern though is there is a definite weight penalty that comes with extensive modifications, but I'm confident that I'll be able to keep the weight of this one respectable. Here's why.
Ivan's Solents (the 100" span ones most people build with his plans) come in between 7.75 and 9 pounds. At 1200sq inches that's like a kite! lol! That's the Wing Cube Loading of 5.2 which is just outside the WCL range of a glider! IMHO a respectable weight for a plane this size is around 15 to 17lbs. Even at the high end of that range (17lbs) it's still only at a WCL of 10.6. So, the good news for me is that I have an "extra" 6 to 8 pounds to play with. (knowing me I'll probably use every ounce of those "extras"!)
Having said that my AUW goal is 15 pounds. Now that I have had the experience of the CL-415 build it's helped me to come up with that goal weight for the Solent. Here's how. The plans for the 415 were loosely based on the "style" of an Ivan Pettigrew build. The guy who designed it (Mike Roach) was/is a big fan of Ivan's designs but Ivan didn't have a plan for a 415 so Mike decided to design the plan himself. That's the CL-415 that I built.
Since Mike adopted a lot of Ivan's design style and techniques in his 415's design. it too was supposed to come out really, really light. In fact the plans call for it being at around 4.5 lbs! My AUW eventually ended up being 8.6 pounds. ;D Before you freak out here's the thing. Again, like the Solent, at the 4.5 pound suggested weight the 415 would have had another kite like WCL of 6.3. :) Even though my 415 is NINETY ONE POINT FIVE percent heavier than suggested, it still has a more realistic WCL of 12.1 and it actually still flies "light", (like a trainer almost.)
So ... (bear with me now, you know I can be long winded! lol!) if I extrapolate the 91.5% overage to the Solent, I still only come up with 14lbs 13ounces. :) Ok fine, everyone knows that nothing works out in reality like it's planned on paper but a fella has to get his goal numbers from somewhere, right? lol! Joking aside, there's a good reason why I think I should meet or better the 15 pound goal.
The 91.5% overage that I experienced with the 415 was based on the fact that I made a lot of mistakes due to inexperience. This lead to almost all of my overage weight wise. Yes I modified the plane somewhat extensively. For example none of the following were called for in the plans:
1. I added an inch to the wingspan.
2. I added flaps. (with their associated hinges and connecting nuts and bolts and extra servos)
3. I strengthened the wing.
4. I reinforced the fuse.
5. I added real wheels on the sides of the fuse
6. 1 added a lighting system
However I think a good portion of the extra weight was due to the fiberglassing,
See the plans had only called for sheeting the fuse below the water line and then covering it! I sheeted, glassed and painted the entire fuselage. That with it's associated filling and epoxying and painting I would bet put on a lot of the extra weight. If Robert told you the story of my "mudding/sanding" technique associated with drywalling you'll understand why I think here's where the weight piled on! lol!
In any event, the plan this time is just to sheet, FG and paint the bottom one third of the fuse, (just above the water line down) and the bottom 1/3 of the tip floats. (of course that's the plan ... as of now. ;))
Colin
And the nose's profile is wrong too. ;)
Also no flare in the chine rails like the full size.
The postman dropped off a tree in a box today! It's not the 1st yet but ... should I start? ;D
can't hurt to open it up ;)
Nice! An exciting time for sure. I love the smell of new balsa. It get's the creative juices flowing ;D
I haven't built with balsa since April. I'm going through withdrawal!!
I know Michael is itching to get going on his flying boat build, and I'm looking forward to getting back to the Stranraer.
Where do you order your balsa from, Colin?
Quote from: sihinch on September 23, 2014, 03:09:49 PM
Where do you order your balsa from, Colin?
I love how you make me seem like some sort of veteran builder! ;D ;D This is only the second time I've
ever bought Balsa in
any quantity. Anyway, much as I'd like to support the LHS, I just couldn't afford to do so with the amount of wood that these planes call for. I bought the bulk of the CL-415's wood from A&J's and some from Pinnacle and it was quite costly. (and that was for half this amount!) Wood ain't cheap, that's for sure!
National Balsa was where I got this batch from. I also tried Don's balsa (Don Wilson out of Grimsby) but he was only marginally more affordable than the LHS.
Colin
Well since I have some stuff coming for HK that will be needed in the build I've decided to wait until my intended Oct 1st start date afterall. In the meantime I decided I'll try to get one of my ARFs (Great Planes Cosmic Wind) put together. I'm aiming for this weekend to be done! :o
So I've started on about an hour ago and already I have a stress headache. (modifications, modifications!) This does not bode well for a marathon scratch build! lol!
Colin
Well that's done! Wouldn't it be nice if I could also finish the Solent in three days? Gotta love an ARF! ;)
Colin
Looks fast.
What's the power system? 600 watts? ;D
Quote from: sihinch on September 29, 2014, 02:13:10 PM
Looks fast. What's the power system? 600 watts? ;D
Nah just 400, after all its just a two pound plane. ;)
Colin
Doesn't she look "pretty"? ;D
Colin.
P.S. Anyone wanna guess what color my Morphines are gonna be? ;)
Black and Orange.
Jack.
Quote from: Papa on October 02, 2014, 09:03:03 PM
Black and Orange.
Jack.
Orange and orange! ;D lol!
Anyways, to get back on track ... I'm still waiting on some bits to come in before I start on the big build and we're already a day late! >:( Work bench has been cleared and ready to go. You'll notice there's a small box on the bench. I'm REALLY excited about it's contents. It will make the difference between any other Ivan Pettigrew Solent that's ever been built (to my knowledge) and mine.
When I combine "it" with the scale flaps (plus the other things I intend to incorporate) that I hope to be able to build into this thing it'll take the "scaleness" (not a word I know) to a level never before seen in an Ivan Solent. ;D I'll keep you guys guessing as to what it is until I actually build it into the plane. ;) This is my strategy to hopefully maintain some interest in what I'm predicting will be a marathon build.
Regarding the flaps ... when I originally researched these scale "Gouge" flaps, (thanks Rob!) I immediately felt they would be waaaaay out of my league to implement, much less design. However Jack has voluntarily come up with some ideas and has graciously offered to help me design them. Thanks Jack!
And so we wait ...
Colin
Ok enough of this waiting around for parts. >:( Let the 700 hour odyssey begin! ;D I figure if I can consistently put in three hours a day we can have our maiden on May 1st 2015? ;)
In any event I'm gonna tackle the spinners to start. As I've mentioned in a previous post the spinners that are commercially available are not the right shape that I'm looking for and since the custom ones are like 40 bucks a pop (times FOUR!) I'm just gonna have to make my own.
Wish me luck cause my last attempt (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,3383.msg17986.html#msg17986) was a real PITA. However I'm confident that it'll go much easier this time though cause I'm using a completely different method which is much less labor intensive.
So .. here we go! ;D
Colin
i'll be watching :)... btw did the cosmic wind maiden? and how does it fly?
Greg
No maiden yet ... all ready to go though.
BTW, anyone got an old "brushed" esc they don't mind parting with? Any amperage rating will do. Willing to pay for it of course.
Colin
Ok everything's here. :) Now since I found the wing to be the tougher of the two (wing and fuse) to build the last time, I'm gonna start with the wing this time. (I started with the fuse in my CL-415 build) Better to get the tough one out of the way first when I'm mentally fresh! (then I can enjoy the rest of the build)
Colin
The fun begins! I'm hoping to get to my big, winter, build in a few days. I have to cut a bunch of Morphine wings first :)
BTW, I'm sure I have a brushed ESC or two kicking around. What current / voltage capacity do you need?
Quote from: piker on October 10, 2014, 08:34:11 AM
BTW, I'm sure I have a brushed ESC or two kicking around. What current / voltage capacity do you need?
Really doesn't matter as I'm just gonna be running some LED's off it. Greg's already promised me one but I can certainly use a couple. :)
So after 13.5 hours I've just finished (well almost) the spinners. I have to wonder if it wasn't worth it just to order the darn custom ones! >:(
Anyways, I used a slightly different method involving the following materials:
Mold release
Cling Wrap
Dry Foam
Plywood
Pantyhose (yeah, you read that right! lol!)
Colin
You ruined your best pair of panty hose?!!!
Never mind, I have more. :)
Ok so I've decided to lay out the steps I took, for my own future reference. ;) First off I decided that I had to make some tools, jigs if you will ... to get and keep the spinners symmetrical. The first I made was a shaping jig to cut the spinners from the block of foam to the shape I needed. The second was a couple of sanding jigs to maintain the shape of the spinners as I was sanding them.
Colin
The second thing I did was make the backplates from 1/16 ply by using a 1.5inch hole saw. Then I bolted the backplates on to the foam block, stuck them in the drill press and put my handy dandy shaping jig to work! :)
Next I had to create a release barrier between the foam and the actual material I was gonna be using to construct the spinner itself. I used cling wrap rubbed down with mold release for this. Stretched it over the "forms" and then coated it with a thin coating of epoxy. I then stretched the panty hose over the cling wrapped form for my first layer of the spinner itself.
Why panty hose? Well the conventional or more common material is to use fiberglass cloth but the panty hose conforms much better to the shape of the form that you're using. (in this case the foam cone) The only drawback of this is that the panty hose is very weak compared to FB, but I figured if I used enough layers I would get the strength I needed.
Colin
After that dried I then coated the panty hose with another thin coating of epoxy and laid down my second layer of panty hose over top to strengthen and add more rigidity to the spinner.
I then coated that with light weight filler to fill any imperfections in the structure. After that dried I then sanded them (with my sanding jig ;)) and sprayed them with high fill primer.
Colin
Next I sanded most of the high fill primer off to get them as smooth a finish as I could. I then installed my screws that I would use to attach the spinners to their backplates. Then I cut out my prop cutouts. The hardest part of this whole process was to get them all exactly the same shape and size. I think I did a pretty good job but you may (;)) have noticed that the second spinner from the right (in the last pic) is a little more "pointed" than the rest which are more scale. That's the challenge of doing multiple spinners. At a casual glace on the plane it probably won't be noticeable but knowing myself I will probably do that one over to match the others. ;)
The other challenge was that I also found the panty hose to be much weaker than I expected, even with two layers with epoxy in between. Without the backplates the spinner bottoms are VERY flexible ... so much so that I'm concerned that the bottoms of the spinners (in between the cutouts) may "splay" during high rpms. Therefore I've decided to reinforce that area by adding a one inch wide "ring" of fiber glass cloth to the inside circumference of the spinners. That should make it bullet proof. ;D Oh ... and I still have to add one last coating of lightweight spackle to fill some pin holes then they are ready to paint and balance.
Colin
Wow, nine days since my last post and I'm supposed to be building this thing!? Anyways, been busy with life ... finally started putting some glue to some sticks for the fuse. Plan is to just frame the two sides then put them aside and start the wing.
Colin
Who's glasses? Is your Gramps helping you build? ;D
Never mind ... I use a magnifying lamp as well as the glasses!! ;D I hope you use your glasses when you're cutting out my Morphine cores!
I have two pairs in my workshop. I regular pair for generally seeing stuff, and a stronger pair for more detailed stuff.
Ugh! What are we going to do when we get old?! :o
Stop making irrelevant posts about age for a start!
Jack.
What are YOU so sensitive about? ;D
Snarkey Whippersnappers.
After reading that I do sound like my Dad.
LOL
Jack.
Ok so after putting in 38.5 hours so far (keeping track this time as per Graham's question (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4354.msg30718.html#msg30718) and my own records. :) ) here's where I'm at. I was supposed to just frame up the sides and then start with the wing but I'm waiting on some stuff for the wing so decided to go ahead and at least get the fuse fully framed up.
As you saw in post #67 (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg31508.html#msg31508) I started the process with one side but decided to try something new (to me at least) to get the other side exactly the same as the first side. With my CL-415 I had built both sides on the plan separately and consequently they did not come out exactly the same.
THIS time I wanted to try a trick I learned ... that is to put some paper (in my case parchment paper) on top of the first finished side and then build the other side on top of that, as opposed to on the plans.
All I had to do was tape the paper down really tightly and then rub it down over top of the frame slightly with pencil so as to bring out visual references as to where the edges of the original frame was.
It worked really well as you can see in the second pic. Came out exactly the same. ;D
Colin
Now I had to get the sides aligned and glued together ... boy was that ever a tough one. This process screamed for a jig of some sort cause the fuse is so big and consequently really wobbly. However since I had no such apparatus (nor was I inclined to make one) I just used much perseverance and a liberal dose of good ole' fashioned cussin'. I managed to do a pretty good job if I may say so myself. My laser is proof! ;)
More stick work tomorrow.
Colin
Some more pics.
Hey Colin, where did you buy those pins?
Jack.
Wow! Looking great!
Quote from: Papa on October 23, 2014, 09:12:03 PM
Hey Colin, where did you buy those pins?
Jack.
Ahh Jack ... those pins. There's a story behind those pins ... but I'll keep it short. ;) Those pins are extremely hard to source but I found them at Hobby Express (formerly Hobby Lobby) in the states. The pins only cost 12 bucks or so for a hundred (if I remember correctly) but here's the rub. They wanted almost FIFTY BUCKS to ship them to me. PINS! So I had them shipped to my brother in Texas (for 6 bucks) and he shipped them to me for ... yup ... six bucks. ;D
Colin
Quote from: piker on October 23, 2014, 09:33:24 PM
Wow! Looking great!
Hey did you get my text about the plug's dimensions?
Ya. I replied. 6" across the back/bottom, 4.75 front to back along the bottom/center, and 2.75" tall at the back/center. Does it fit?
I'll check tomorrow.
So I'm putting the finishing touches on my stick work and came across this view. I thought it was so cool I figured I'd share. :)
Colin
That looks about right. ;)
The obligatory "Mya" shots. :)
Colin
Ok so I've been working on sheeting the tail section for the last couple of DAYS. It's the toughest sheeting I've ever done. Looks deceptively simple, but there are a few compound curves in there that make it really difficult. Anyway, finally got it done but in the process got the fuse misaligned. Had to do some thinking outside the box but got it back "true" in the end. Whew!
Colin
How did you realign it?
Jack.
I cut some of the sticks that were put under uneven tension by the sheeting and that "relaxed" the frame so that I was able to realign it and then I just glued the sticks back in in slightly different positions. ;D
Nice!
Jack.
Looks great Colin. Like a great big fish! ;D
Thanks guys. This part is always the hardest part for me, seems like you're putting in a tremendous amount of time yet there's little "apparent" result. Best to take your time with this stage through as it sets the stage for the more "fun" stuff later and the eventual result. This is the reason that I'm being even more careful this time around for alignment etc.
A good example is I remember the CL-415 having a slight misalignment in the fuse which then transferred to the V stab being slightly out of alignment ... which then eventually resulted in the rudder having to be in almost a 1/8" trim position to have neutral flight. Don't want any of those issues here. I have to be even more careful with this airframe because its bigger which means it that much easier to go out of true. To be honest I'm a little nervous about the wing ... a lot can go wrong over 100 inches!
Colin
Slow day today at work so I can put in a few hours. :) Well, I've started the painstaking process of trying to make the fuse rounder as per the full size. Course the plans call for a flat sided plane but this was one of the mods I intended to do. Just as a recap here are the mods I intend:
1. Make the fuse more rounded as per the full size.
2. Ad the chine rails "flare".
3. Add scale "Gouge" flaps.
4. More scale canopy
5. More scale nose
6. Shorten the rudder. (full size's does not extend down to the fuse as per these plans)
7. Make all control linkages internal and thus invisible from the outside.
These are the mods to the actual plans.
Then of course I plan to add as much scale details as possible. (even down to 3D raised window frames!) My daughter said to me the other day ... "Daddy you're crazy abut planes". After contemplating what I intend to do with this plane and all the (unnecessary?) work that it entailed, I corrected her by saying "I think I'm just crazy, period". :)
Anyways, here's some stuff I got going today. Notice how rounded the full size's tail is ... almost as cylindrical as a cone. The good news though ... is that it then tapers to slab sided by the time you get to the nose. So that's a little less work for me as initially I thought I'd have to round the entire fuse. The other part is that I'll also have to incorporate the little chine rail flare from the nose right through to just aft of the step.
So to start the whole process I have to cut and individually measure those side fuse formers so this should take the better part of the day. One thing for sure, at the end of it all, if I succeed to getting this even close to these goals she'll be one curvy girl!
Colin
It's gonna be WAY better than
@piker foamie! ;)
That's a little better.
Upper deck coming along nicely. Quite pleased I've been able to maintain a level frame so far, however can anyone spot the GLARING mistake that I've made regarding the rounding of the fuse? ::) Lets see who's paying attention. ;D
Colin.
Oh and Rob or Jack are not allowed to answer. ;)
Ok the answer is that I jumped the gun on the rounding and did it as if the fuse stopped where the upper deck starts! The rounding formers should be from the bottom to the top of the upper deck as shown by the temporary foam former.
BTW, I'll probably make the H stab removable ... the thing is huge! I can just see myself breaking it off moving the plane from the basement to upstairs.
Colin
Stab framed up ... definitely have to make this removable. Can you imagine trying to get this monster with a horizontal stab almost three feet wide up the stairs from the basement and around two sharp corners .. without breaking something?!
Colin
Some progress is being made. ;) Stab now made removable.
Colin
Elevators framed up ... check it out relative to the 36" Cosmic Wind! lol!
Colin
holy smokes... that Cosmic wind looks small :)
Looks like you could use it as a Piker legal race wing! ;)
Just happened to notice that the elevator goes all the way across the stab while the full sized stab does not. Had to make the adjustment. ;)
Colin
Nice touch! ;D
Thanks! So, in keeping with my goal to make this as scale as I can ... I've been working on replicating the slotted control surface hinges that the full size has. All was going well until I decided to look more closely at the pic. CRAP! The slots for the full size are on the control surface side ... the slots for the surfaces I started (elevators) are on the H stab side! :o Back to redo them all over again! >:(
I guess the lesson I should learn here is that if I'm gonna be deviating from the plans this much I'd better study the full size part I'm trying to replicate BEFORE I start on them!
Colin
It's coming along really nicely, Colin.
I'm feeling left out as I'm not doing an big project building right now. I'll be back at it soon.
Your Solent is going to be wonderful!
Mmmm... Solent Green ;D
Quote from: piker on November 12, 2014, 03:22:57 PM
I'll be back at it soon.
Yeah, wouldn't it be awesome to see the Stranraer, Sandringham, Solent, Albatross, CL 415 and CL 215 all at the same event? SIX flying boats! That would be a spectacle, eh? ;D
Colin
Oh, it's going to happen!
An Ken R. showed his new Macchi M-33 at the meeting last night, which means we now have three or four awesome, Schneider racers to fly at the float fly's next year!
Finally finished the elevators. As usual it took longer than expected. Just needs a bit of filler and then a final sanding. Decided against completely sheeting them as originally planned to save some weight. Instead just sheeted the tips and cap stripped the ribs.
Rudder up next!
Colin
Ok just another reiteration as to how awesome our club is! Over the last couple of months on more than one occasion I had mentioned that I was really having a difficult time conceptualising the scale flaps on this model. Even after discussing it with Robert who was familiar with them I had all but come to the conclusion that I was gonna leave them off the model.
Well, Jack on his own accord (cause that's just the kind of guy he is!) offered to give it a shot to see if he could come up with something that would work. Long story short, he came up with a prototype which all but convinced me that it could be done.
I'll have to see if and how it could best be integrated into the wing of course but at first glance it looks really promising! So, huge thanks to Jack or using his time and energy to come up with a potentially workable solution. As you will see from the pics and video its simple and elegant, yet practical.
Secondly, as you may have gleaned by now, my intent is to change so many things on this plane that to say it is "loosely" based on an Ivan Pettigrew design is somewhat of an understatement. In that vein one of the things that has to be changed/redesigned is the canopy. This is where Robert was gracious enough to loan me the plug from which he pulled his canopy for his Sandringham. (which sports an almost identically designed canopy)
Even though his canopy is a bit smaller than mine the plug will serve as a excellent model for the one that I will have to make, to pull my canopy. So huge thanks to Rob as well. If this plane turns out half as good as I intend it to be, it will be so is large part to the help and input that I've gotten from the vets in this club. So thanks again Rob and Jack!
Colin
http://youtu.be/wFgU1RjBwho
You're always welcome Colin.
Jack.
Ok so I started on the V stab and rudder etc ... and lo and behold ... found another thing that needs to be redesigned to look more like the real thing. :( If you look at the full scale you'll notice the shape of the fin is quite a bit different from the plans I have. So ... of course I couldn't let that go (it's the disease ... its not my fault, I can't help it! :() so I had to redesign my fin around that. See pics of the plans and my mod. (outlined in red)
The other thing that I had to change was the sweep of the actual top of the rudder to the rear (like the full size) as opposed to the rudder going straight up as per the plans. The final thing that will be changed is the full size's rudder is about 85% of the length of the v stab as opposed to 100% as of the model's plans.
I've heard it once said that once you try for "Scale" you will never finish the model cause there's always more you can add/do. However, I'm having fun with it so we'll see how far I can take it without getting completely burnt out! lol!
The real downside to it though is that it takes soooo much more time. I'm 111 hours into this so far and all I have to show for it are four spinners, a fuselage frame and framing for the elevators and partial framing of the V stab! (basically redesigning the entire plane as I go along doesn't help either!)
Incidentally I'm pleased with how I got the upper fin to "key" into the lower fin, (I'm making the Vstab removable like the elevators) it wasn't as difficult as I thought it might be to get a clean slop free fit.
Colin
I can't believe you're counting the hours that you've worked on it! :o
You mean nobody else does this? :o ;D But seriously, I'm interested to see how much actual time these things really do take to build. (Plus it'll help me to gauge build times for my future projects.) And its not difficult, I just guesstimate the time I spent on it in any given day and write that number in on that day in my shop calendar. ;D
Colin
Taking the time now to get the shapes as close as possible, is a good idea. It's frustrating to work so hard to build a scale model just to find out later that it's not as accurate as you thought, or would like.
Modifying the shapes, or structure, as you're doing, is one of the great advantages (and challenges) of scratch building. When building from a kit, you feel like you have to stick with the design as is, as the majority of the shapes are pre-cut for you and it would be a shame to toss them all out and start over.
Great work! it's looking good!
Got it! (not quite but close!) ;D
Colin
Little bit of progress.
C.
Wow! Lookin' good!
It's starting to look like a plane. I love the open, wood construction.
I decided to do a somewhat unconventional internal linkage assembly for my rudder and elevator. Certainly something I've never tried before but so far (just finished the rudder) I like how it turned out even though it was extremely finicky to put together and get installed/aligned just right.
Basically since the vert stab and rudder were gonna be removable from the plane for transport and storage purposes, I made the rudder's control rod (first pic) to basically "key" into a corresponding receptacle (square brass tube) in the rudder itself. In other words, the "male" is attached to the fuse proper, and it keys into the "female" (which is embedded in the rudder) whenever I remove or attach the rudder/stab to the plane. Clear as mud right? ;) The pics should explain it better. :)
Colin
i'm assuming now all control surfaces mechanics will be internal?
Jack.
Yup.
First time back to the thread for a while...WOW! TEMAC continues to find ways to inspire all of us wannabe builders!
Colin, I'm intrigued by your use of a laser in the last photo. Can you elaborate a bit please?
That's cool! Nice work!
Quote from: Wingnutz on November 24, 2014, 12:19:08 PM
First time back to the thread for a while...WOW! TEMAC continues to find ways to inspire all of us wannabe builders!
Colin, I'm intrigued by your use of a laser in the last photo. Can you elaborate a bit please?
Bill, the laser is just used to help me make sure that the Vstab was properly aligned to the fuse and equally spaced with the elevators.
Colin
Quote from: piker on November 24, 2014, 12:21:22 PM
That's cool! Nice work!
Thanks. Not looking forward to doing the ele linkage cause now I'll have even less space to work with inside back there!
Making some progress, albeit slow. (but steady) This is the most finicky part yet. (elevator internal control linkage) Alignment is crucial so I have to get it just so. In the meantime here's a treat for flying boat fanatics. (you know who you are! ;)) It's a short clip on the plane that started it all (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg30720.html#msg30720) ... the Empire boat S.23
Colin
http://youtu.be/V-63IBn6c_M
Ok, part one of this whole internal elevator linkage challenge completed. Next the real PITA part ... matching the actual elevators to the linkages to ensure a slop free and perfectly aligned (both halves the same) fit. Pics below just to show how tight it was to work at the back there on this stuff.
Colin
nice work.... now that is some advanced engineering .... you should come and work here (at AMD)
Hey Colin! How are you holding the stab halves and fin in place once on the rods... to prevent them from sliding off during flight?
Quote from: battlestu on November 26, 2014, 03:19:59 PM
nice work.... now that is some advanced engineering .... you should come and work here (at AMD)
Thanks Greg!
Quote from: piker on November 26, 2014, 04:02:25 PM
Hey Colin! How are you holding the stab halves and fin in place once on the rods... to prevent them from sliding off during flight?
Haven't figured that one out yet ... I'm playing with a few options but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. ;D
Duct Tape will work
Not much difference in terms of pics here as its the same concept as the rudder. Anyway tail feathers are all done and came out ok. Only regret I have is being lazy and using brass tubing that I had on hand and not going out and buying CF rods for my assembly rods etc, The brass does create some binding in installation and removal of both the rudder/V stab and the V stab/elevators. CF rods would have made everything slide soooo much easier. Robert, at this rate I won't need an attachment method, they'll stay on just based on friction! ;D
Hopefully over time they will become a little "looser" since right now it is a slight PITA. (it's mostly the H stab/elevators) If not the male rods are all removable so I may just change them out later.
Colin
P.S. Sooooo glad to be done with these, I spent what seems like an eternity on them. Now I can move on to more fun stuff, ie ... more "rounding" of the fuse, then onto flaring the chine rails, then upper deck etc etc etc. :)
Put a tiny amount of "3-in-1" oil on the steel rods. This will ease it and also prevent any rust or corrosion from moisture.
Jack.
Good idea Jack ... tried some new fangled silicone lubricants etc and not getting much luck so some good ole old fashioned oil might just be the ticket!
Anyways, completed the finishing touches to the tail ... which included the curve from the front of the fin onto the top of the fuse. (which btw is one of the characteristics which differentiate this from the Sandringham) As you might have noticed from the full sized pic, that curve actually starts a bit higher on the fin/Vert stab than mine and the slpoe is more gradual but I had to position mine where I have it because of the "break" in my stab to facilitate removal. An inch and a half higher would have been "scale" but oh well ... practicality won out this time!
Also the TE of the rudder in the full size extend waaaay past the TE of the elevators and then flows nicely into that elongated tail cone but I noticed that a little too late to do anything about it. This results in mine haven't a decidedly more "stumpy" look which annoys me to no end. >:( You can be sure I'll be paying more attention going forward! ::)
I also finished the "base deck" below the rudder and the actual tail end of the plane ... which houses my tail light. There's some rounding of that tail piece to be done (its more of a tail cone) but I'll do that in the sheeting stage.
As you can see I'm using some HYPER High intensity Leds for my nav lights on this project. (another thing I learned from my CL-415 project is which the lights aren't very visible) These babies will even be seen in BRIGHT sunlight! lol!
Colin
Quote from: wollins on November 30, 2014, 08:11:20 PM
Also the TE of the rudder in the full size extend waaaay past the TE of the elevators and then flows nicely into that elongated tail cone but I noticed that a little too late to do anything about it. This results in mine haven't a decidedly more "stumpy" look which annoys me to no end. Colin
Hmmm ... the more I look at it and think about it the more I'm convinced I have to fix it. After all there is no practical reason for THIS situation. Yes, I've decided ... I will fix it. :) This means I have to extend the TE of the rudder and rudder base ... and cut off the tail cone in order to elongate it. :o Heck of a lot of work but this OCD thing is hard to ignore. :'( Oh well. I've said from the get go that I'll try to make this as scale as
I possibly can ... and
I can certainly make this adjustment. (afterall it's wood we're dealing with here right? ;) ;D)
Colin
Wow, brave call Colin. I can see what you mean but that's a load more work now! Good for you for staying true to your goal of a scale finish.
Good luck.
Where did you get your hyper-bright LEDs?
Quote from: sihinch on December 01, 2014, 08:49:16 AM
Wow, brave call Colin. I can see what you mean but that's a load more work now! Good for you for staying true to your goal of a scale finish.
Good luck.
Where did you get your hyper-bright LEDs?
Yeah the reason this happened was I followed the plans. ;) >:( ::) The plans have the elevators way back (as opposed to the full size's ele and rudder hinge lines which almost intersect) which is why the rudder is not past the elevators as in the full size.
Now I know some designers design their planes a certain (none scale) way because they fly better that way and maybe this is the case with Ivan's plans but hey, I'm doing this primarily for looks dammit! ;D Maybe I'll just disregard these darn plans and build truly from scratch! lol!
Colin.
P.S. The lights are from a source in the UK (British rule! ;)) at http://www.lightingforaeromodellers.co.uk/ If you're gonna order from there make sure you tell Ross I referred ya!
thanks for the link.... almost pulled the trigger on a HK set but now it looks like i'll need to look over this site :)
BTW the build is looking great!
I am going to the UK for hols and could get them delivered to my Mums and then bring them back. Happy to collect for others (within reason - I'm not ferrying 40 light sets back!)
Good work, Colin. It's difficult to convert a non-scale design into a more scale design. It's a lot of work right now but it'll be worth it... really it will ;D
I'm also trying to make my plane look scale (from 50 feet away, and up in the air). ;D
Quote from: Michael on December 01, 2014, 12:41:29 PM
I'm also trying to make my plane look scale (from 50 feet away, and up in the air). ;D
Believe it or not, I envy you. You don't have OCD. >:( ;D
Colin
P/S Done the rudder already. Should be able to finish the whole "rectification" by this afternoon. Pics are a comin'!
Quote from: Michael on December 01, 2014, 12:41:29 PM
I'm also trying to make my plane look scale (from 50 feet away, and up in the air). ;D
I'll be judging your plane, up and close, while it's sitting on the ground. There had better be curtains in the windows!
There! Isn't that better? :)
Colin
Sorry Colin, what's different? ;D
;D
Anyone know where I can find square CF tube with square holes locally? Couldn't find any at Pinnacle or John's. Like these http://www.cstsales.com/carbon_sh.html
Colin
I have one piece that's about 1/4" square by about 12"
Jack.
Thanks Jack but looking for something quite a bit smaller ... somewhere in the neighbourhood of 4 to 6mm (tops)
C.
You might be more successful finding aluminum or brass. At that size in a model this big the weight should not be a factor.
Jack.
Put in six hours on it today but unless you're really paying attention to this build not much looks different! ::) Anyway, I redid all the fuse formers to get the rounding effect I wanted. You may recall in this post (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg31690.html#msg31690) that I initially did them incorrectly. (by not carrying them up far enough.)
BTW, I sourced the CF tubes that I wanted online so now I'm gonna redo all that brass stuff in the tail feathers cause the fit is just not as good as I want them to be. (Notice a trend here? >:( It's no wonder my builds take so freakin' long! :o)) Anyway better to pay the price in time and effort now than at the field when I might just be in a hurry to fly and I have to fight with "fit" when assembling. These big planes take long enough to set up without me adding some more time and effort to that process.
Colin
Started on the Chine rails flare mod today. Just used strips of balsa along the entire bottom outer edge of fuse frame. Tomorrow will then install triangular standoffs to seat the curve of the sheeting. (transitioning from the fuse frame onto the strips.)
Also took some weights today ... fuse frame as we stand now is 12.1ozs and tail feathers are 4.6ozs. Almost a pound and a half total. Don't know what those numbers mean in terms of where I should be as yet but will try to compare to the CL-415 at this same stage and make some rough extrapolations.
Colin
THIS is why I record the seemingly insignificant stuff in my builds! ;) I was able to find a couple of pics of the weight of my CL-415 (post 42 in that thread) at almost exactly the same stage as where I'm at now with the Solent. This allows me to make a rough comparison. ;D
Well, I'm not too thrilled with what I found since I'm more than double the weight of that plane at this stage ... and this plane is not double the size of that one! Anyway, there's a lot more wood to this plane so it's to be expected I guess. Not that I'm obsessing too much about weight (who am I kidding? ;D) but the CL-415 ended up being 91.5% over it's recommended AUW of 4.5lbs. Course 4.5 pounds for a 74 inch plane is a bit ridiculous! ::)
I'm hoping to come in about 75% over this plane's recommended AUW of 7.75lbs (again ... ridiculous for a 100" plane) or in other words 13.5lbs. So, I'll have to be more careful as I go along now that I've seen this pic.
Colin
Ya but weight doesn't grow directly in proportion to size. Otherwise, my 1/4 scale biplane at 16 lbs would only weight 64 lbs in full size ;D
I'm sure you're fine. That's a nice light build so far, and it's looking fantastic!
Quote from: piker on December 06, 2014, 08:40:41 AM
Ya but weight doesn't grow directly in proportion to size. Otherwise, my 1/4 scale biplane at 16 lbs would only weight 64 lbs in full size ;D
I'm sure you're fine. That's a nice light build so far, and it's looking fantastic!
Yeah I hear ya ... just can't let that weight slip away from me this time cause then I would have made the same mistake twice.
C
I'm more concerned (a bit) about the weight of my Stranrear. It's construction is a lot more substantial than yours. But I'm not aiming for a wimpy 6 lb flying weight. Mine will fly like a real plane at 16-18lbs ;D
So I'm helping my kids clean up their toys and came across the perfect Solent spinners. ;) EASTER EGG CASINGS/SHELLS! ;D Upon close examination and comparison to the full size spinner shape I've concluded that I will be heading to the closest party supply store sometime in the near future. ;D I could never produce spinners that perfect a shape and size for this project. lol!
See for yourself ... I'm specifically looking at the one next to mine. To make the situation even better, the pink one fits perfectly inside the one I like so I can use that size to reinforce my blade cutouts! Woot woot!
Colin
Quote from: wollins on December 05, 2014, 09:37:32 PM
Started on the Chine rails flare mod today. Just used strips of balsa along the entire bottom outer edge of fuse frame. Tomorrow will then install triangular standoffs to seat the curve of the sheeting. (transitioning from the fuse frame onto the strips.)
Done with this stage. Next will start work on the upper fuse/nose area.
Colin
That's a lucky find with the spinners! Just make sure they're secured well at the back plate to ensure they don't blow apart at speed.
Good point ... extensive "out of plane" testing will be performed on all aspects of the propulsion system ... before hand. ;) Got my props (APC 10X6's) ... just waiting for my Esc's and motors.
Are these 4 bladed props?
Course, we wanna be scale. ;)
I finally got the nose to a somewhat respectable shape, making it much more "roundy" as per the full size as opposed to the stark angular look as per the plans. (BTW, I hate planking and I sooooo suck at it!) A final round of filler and sanding and I can move on. (I didn't enjoy this part of the build because of my intense dislike for planking ... thank goodness I'm still able to make the end result look good! ;D )
Colin
P.S The pic of the all white plane is another modeler's and shows the nose as per the plans.
Ok, as I've mentioned earlier, one of the mods is to make the canopy and upper deck forward of the wing one big hatch, as opposed to the little dedicated "roof hatch" that the plans suggest. Obvious reason for this is that my method will give me a lot more room for my hands to get in there to swap/hookup batteries etc.
Here are a couple of pics with the start of my effort.
Colin
Sticks, sticks and more sticks! This is how she's gonna be positioned. The canopy plug is just there fore reference. (I have to make another one since it's a tiny bit too small for this model.)
Colin
P.S. The lightening holes are my feeble attempt to lose some weight! lol!
Wowsers!
It reminds me of those photos from the 1920s of Guys in New York hanging from steel girders! Massive construction, and all beams & struts.
Very nice.
Thanks Simon!
So ... I found some wood. ;) It's hard to imagine this piece of stuck together lumber will be transformed into a smooth form that will serve as my plug to pull the canopy off of. At least that's the plan. ::) Stay tuned, I have MUCH chopping, grinding, sanding, filling and buffing to do. ;D
Colin
Halfway there. ;D
Lookin' good, Colin! Keep grinding!
Ok Colin, as a "lurker" I just have to ask, did you make that out of 2x4's??
While I am at it, how many hours are you up to now?
It is looking so nice!!
Quote from: gmcnic on December 19, 2014, 08:42:52 PM
Ok Colin, as a "lurker" I just have to ask, did you make that out of 2x4's??
While I am at it, how many hours are you up to now?
It is looking so nice!!
Yup! Good ole lumber! ;D Hours so far ... 225. (475 to go? ;)) BTW, my goal to finish this fuse is Jan 31st.
Colin
80% there. (can't see any difference can you! lol) Anyway it needs to be a smidge flatter at the top and the sides near the front need to come in a little and then i'll be satisfied. ;D
Colin
90% done. ;D And now the hard part ... getting it as smooth as Rob's (in the foreground) ... which is as smooth as glass ... no word of a lie.
Colin
What Grit Sandpapers are you planning to use?
Jack.
Oh I have as smooth as 1000 grit (which is like rubbing with plain paper. :)) and every grit in between.
Well, I got it to the stage of attempting to pull the canopy and that was a complete failure. :( My heat gun couldn't develop enough heat to get the plastic pliable enough. grrrrr. So now I have to put out an appeal for anyone with a vacuum former to help me out. If that doesn't work I'll either have to make my own or build the canopy the old fashion way.
Colin
Well, since I can't get the canopy pulled just yet, I started the sheeting. Really does show its true size as soon as there's sides to it!
Colin
Awesome, Colin! What's with the big, round hole?
lightening holes? ;)
Those are speed holes ;D
bullet holes? :o ;D
A whole seven days and nothing to show for it. >:( Darn, these holidays suck! :( ;D Entertaining small children 24/7 leaves no time for building. Anyways, they're gonna be out for most of Thursday and Friday so I intend to put in a good 12 hours over those two days on this bird. My goal is to finish sheeting the entire fuse. To be frank even though my timetable calls for the fuse to be done by Jan month end, I'm a little sick of it. ::)
So Friday night I should have something to show!
Colin
This plane has THIRTY NINE windows. I've decided that at least 12 of those 39 will be real. (double paned and all! lol!)
Colin
That looks a pane!!!! ;D
Tell me about it! I may have to adjust my timetable. ::)
Some progress.
Colin
Wow! :o :D
Well, I've almost finished sheeting the entire fuse. The only parts left to do are the top of the cabin area and the tail area. Deliberately so cause I have to access the cabin from the top to install some stuff and I have to do some final control linkage adjustments at the back so I need access there as well. All in all, I'm very pleased ... I think I managed the get the curves I was going for nice and even on both sides.
Next up is to get the keel and nose installed and canopy formed. After that I'll do my thing in the cabin, adjust the linkage, button up those areas with sheeting, sealing the wood with poly and installing my windows. After that it's filling my imperfections with lightweight filler, a final sand and covering. On track for month end I think!
Colin
That looks great! A beautiful flying boat hull.
Michael had his Albatross fuselage in the car last night, so I was able to have a look at that too. It's so cool seeing these building projects come together.
BTW, what are you watching on TV? Look's interesting ;D
Quote from: piker on January 06, 2015, 09:44:19 AM
BTW, what are you watching on TV? Look's interesting ;D
Lol! Didn't even notice that until you pointed it out. Have the TV on mostly for background noise but now I'm wondering what I missed! ;D
C.
I have an eye for detail ;D
It probably is the credits or adds.
It was the end of a show as the time was almost 8:00pm!
Jack.
Crap you guys are sharp! I've gotta make sure that there's nothing incriminating in the background in the pics going forward. ;)
C.
You might recall I was looking for some specific sized carbon fiber rods/tubes and that I was finding it extremely difficult to source locally. Well, here's an excellent resource for such. https://www.rcfoam.com/carbon-fiber-sheets%2C-carbon-rods-and-tubes/
Shipping is reasonable to us here in Canada too!
Colin.
P.S BTW, I've heard of people cutting themselves during a build etc but never "grinding" themselves! Here's my nail after a close encounter with the disc sander. :)
Colin, maybe you should have been wearing those glasses that are on your work bench 8)
Hey Andre! Long time, no hear!
Colin... I've done that a few times :)
Thank god I WAS wearing those glasses or else I might have taken the whole finger off! :o
C
Well, I got sidetracked a bit (about 7 hours worth! ::) ) I decided that I just couldn't live with the binding I mentioned (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg32006.html#msg32006) that I was having with my removable elevator setup (brass tubing etc) so I decided to switch all the brass stuff out for CF rods and tubes. This opened up a whole bag of worms with my linkages etc which made me feel that sometimes its best to leave well alone? NAH! ;D
Anyways long story short I had to make my linkages "dual" now because of some geometry issues.. Anyway now that its done it was worth it cause they are nice and smooth now. One less thing to fight with at the field/lake getting her ready.
Now I can finish the sheeting at the tail!
Colin
What a nice plane Collins!! one day I want to build planes like you and Piker!
Andre, Michael is building the Albatross. ;)
Colin
Whoo hoo! Motors have arrived! Guess I have to soon start thinking about the wing. ::)
C
Are they all the same?
Yup
LOL!!!!!!!!! I MEANT COLIN!!!! but no doubt you, Michael, and Piker are excellent builders, I hope I my build skills reach 10% of yours in the next 2 years lol!
My building skills do not match Robert's nor Colin's.
I suppose I could make the effort, but my projects are specifically planned to strike a balance between good building, and a timely finish.
hee hee I'm happy if my builds can fly ;)
Quote from: wollins on January 09, 2015, 10:33:16 AM
Yup
'cause the pictures on the boxes are different :)
Andre, from what I've seen of your stab so far, you look like you know what you're doing.
And Michael. Why so modest? I hardly recognise you ;D
Quote from: Michael on January 09, 2015, 11:15:38 AM
My building skills do not match Robert's nor Colin's.
You're much too kind my friend, much too kind. I'm just flattered to be named in the same company! My skill is purely persistence and "anality"! lol!
Colin
Starting in the keel and nose today. Excited about that cause it'll finally give the plane it's flying boat shape.
C
Didn't get to do anything today except install my servo tray and a couple of servos. >:( Anyways I decided to do a weigh in and at this stage without the keel, nose, battery tray, canopy and the balance of sheeting we're just over two pounds. (33.6ozs to be exact. ;) ) I have a feeling that that's pretty good considering the size of this thing and the amount of wood that's on it!
Hmmm ... just checked where my CL-415 was at roughly this stage ... 28.5ozs! (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4354.msg27451.html#msg27451) Even though that was with the nose, battery tray, keel and fully sheeted, I'm not doing too badly at all with this one! ;D By my rough calculation, to be on track weight wise with that build I have to have this fuse with the nose, battery tray, canopy, keel and balance of sheeting ... come in at 38.6ozs.
C.
Well, the inspector came by last night and as I expected he had to find fault with something with the build! Just kidding ... in all seriousness I'd had some concerns about my ele linkage (yes, that again!) in terms of the slop/play that I couldn't seem to pinpoint. Not only was there slop, but it was uneven in the sense that there was more slop on one half as opposed to the other. I certainly didn't want to risk a 1000 hour build (yep, time estimate has been extended) due to something that I "took a chance with", knowing full well it was suspect. So I asked Rob to come by and give a second opinion.
As you know I have my elevators in two halves to make them removable and even though every thing fit perfectly, somewhere in the whole setup I was having this softness/play that I was not at all comfortable with. Turns out that we discovered it was a combination (a perfect storm if you will) of:
1. Not enough torsional rigidity in the carbon fiber connecting rod itself.
2. Tiny bit of slop within the actual fit of that male CF rod within the female CF rod. (previously undetected by me)
3. Some give or buckling in the Sullivan Gold N' Rod control rod from servo to linkage.
Turns out two pairs of eyes (and we used several pairs of glasses! lol!) and two minds are better than one! I knew when I was switching over from brass to CF that there might have been some compromise in rigidity. Didn't cater for it being this much. ::)
Long story short ... there are three options at this point.
1. Leave as is and take a chance. :o
2. Do it all over again ... back to the brass linkages, this time just making sure the alignment is perfect so I don't have the binding that cause me to switch over to CF in the first place.
3. Forget "scale" ... and just run the control rods outside the plane. :'( (like normal people would, lol!)
Pros and cons of each?
1. PRO: No more work. CON: A very real chance of losing the plane to a known issue.
2. PRO. "Scale" baby! ;D CON: A ton more work (maybe another 15 hours?) for not a guaranteed satisfactory result.
3. PRO: Guaranteed rock solid and proven, worry free result. CON: NOT SCALE! :( >:(
As far as option three is concerned, some would say "hey man, even if they're run outside they'll be under the stabs anyway, so no one will see them!" The trouble with that is ... I WILL SEE THEM. >:( ;D
So ... which option do you guys think I will take? ;)
Ok onto a more pleasant aspect of the build ...
I realized that I hadn't put in my battery tray yet so that further delayed putting in the keel. (which btw effectively seals access to the fuse from the bottom which is why I'm leaving it for as long as possible) So I did that (pic #1) and then moved onto something that I could relax with, (no design headaches!) the windows! ;D
What this entails is that I have to roughly trace an outline of each window opening onto the plexiglass itself (pic #2) and then cut them out individually. (pic #3) Then I have to shape/sand the outlines of each window to match each window opening to get an exact fit. (pic #4) Each window opening's edge will then be beveled so that the pane will be inset about 1/16 of an inch. Pane will then be glued into place.
Next, that 1/16 of an inch will then be "filled/sealed" with rubber "window framing" which will be glued into that space and that will eventually be flush with the fuse. (material of which yet to be determined but I'm thinking O rings) The effect I'm going for is a window that double paned, inset ... with a window frame that's flush with the fuse. ;)
Time? We're looking at about 40 mins per window (for the whole process) for a total of about eight hours to get all 12 of them just right! :o Fortunately the inner panes (windows are gonna be double paned to give that 3D look of depth) don't have to match the openings as they will just be glued to roughly cover the openings from the inside.
Obviously this is gonna be done in stages because of other processes (filling, sanding, sealing, painting etc) that will be going on with the fuse at various stages. For now however, I'm gonna get everything to "fit" perfectly and then the actual final installation will be dependent on the aforementioned fuse stages.
Colin.
P.S. BTW, I'm playing with the ideas of installing some "passengers". (pic #5) Whaddya think? ;D
It's a no brainer, you only have one option. Go back to square one and do it right. You'd never live with yourself if don't.
Passengers are a nice touch.
Jack.
Quote from: Papa on January 11, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
It's a no brainer, you only have one option. Go back to square one and do it right.
Exactly. :)
BTW guys, what options in terms of glue do I have for something that can glue plastic, sets up relatively fast and won't fog the plastic. Need this for my plexiglass windows.
Colin
Canopy glue will work.
I have an adhesive that works well if you want a bottle?
Jack.
I have a canopy glue that sets up in 30 to 60 minutes ... I was hoping for something a bit quicker than that. What's the setup time for yours?
Colin.
P.S. Keel preparations have begun, guys! ;D
The windows will be so cool. So far, so good.
BTW, I MAY have an idea about your intention for those big holes on the side of the fuselage ;D
The same or longer. I don't think you'll get anything faster that won't fog.
Besides what's an hour. Glue them last thing at night and they can be curing while you sleep.
less fuss and worry.
jack.
Quote from: Papa on January 12, 2015, 11:43:08 AM
The same or longer. I don't think you'll get anything faster that won't fog.
Besides what's an hour. Glue them last thing at night and they can be curing while you sleep.
less fuss and worry.
jack.
The time is not the issue ... it's just because of how they're gonna sit within the openings (somewhat recessed) they'll be hard to keep in place or secure while the glue sets up.
Colin
Make pink foam plugs and cover them with saran wrap. They will hold the acetate in place and won't stick to the glue.
Sounds like a great idea Jack, I'll try that.
BTW, for all you glassing experts out there ... Water Vs Oil based poly for glassing?
I've always used WBPU for my fiber glassing and have never heard of folks using the oil version for glassing. Any particular reason why? I have used the oil based to seal my wood first before glassing with WBPU so I was thinking why not just use the Oil based for the whole process since I use it to seal the wood anyway?
Also ... any better product to seal the wood? Sanding sealer, dope etc etc. Suggestions?
Colin
Quote from: frajolex on January 13, 2015, 02:41:01 AM
After a good chat with the experts, I was able to pretty much finish my horizontal stabilizer... I consider it 95% done, the only missing step is filling / sanding to smooth the lines... I'm already building the fin / rudder... it should be ready soon.
Hey Andre, first you get my name mixed up and now you get your own build thread mixed up !lol! I'm guessing you meant to post in this thread (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,5088.0.html)? ;) Great job by the way!
Colin
I knew something was strange! I was looking for my post all the night! lol!
Not much to show but I got the H stabs sheeted. Didn't plan to sheet them originally since the plans called for open structure. However I think they'd be kind of fragile for my plane ... since the plans revolve around a 8 to 10 pound plane. No way mine is gonna be that light of a weight. As you can see I added just under an extra three ounces total by sheeting them.
Colin
They really look nice and clean Collin, do you use an electric sander?
Nope, good ole' elbow grease! :) It's actually quite easy to sand sheeting cause it's very smooth to begin with. I would STRONGLY recommend NOT using an electric sander on anything that we do with these builds. :o ;)
Colin
Quote from: Papa on January 11, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
It's a no brainer, you only have one option. Go back to square one and do it right. You'd never live with yourself if don't.
Jack.
Ok guys so here's where we're at. We've wasted another ten to fifteen hours or so on these darn elevator linkages and we're still not where we need to be. >:(
As you know there are two methods I've tried so far.1. I used some brass tubing as a female coupler installed in the ele itself, (installed straight across the bottom portion of the ele to try to compensate for the dihedral) which will mate with my male music wire coupler in the fuse.
The male coupler is a straight piece of music wire that is encased in an aluminum sleeve which serves a "bearing" of sorts. This coupler is then attached to a servo arm, which is attached to a Sullivan Gold N rod flexible rod attached to a servo etc etc. This setup worked ok but there was unacceptable binding when trying to install and remove my removable stabs. Music wire into brass tubing not the smoothest of connections unless your alignment is 1,000,000% accurate, which doing this by hand in the space I have to work with back there is practically impossible. ::)
The second method I tried was ...
2. I went with dual female CF couplers in the fuse to completely negate the dihedral issue. I replaced all the brass and music wire stuff with CF, since CF is not as "sticky". This worked extremely well in terms of the fit of my stabs to the fuse and the connection between my linkage couplers. The problem here though is that there was now a bit of flex and slop within the system. >:(
The elevators now felt "spongy" for lack of a better term. I suspect this was due to the fact that my female CF tube couplers (within the fuse) may not have the torsional rigidity that is required in this situation and may be "collapsing" when the torque of the male couplers were applied to them?
Long story short I need something that will allow me to have my stabs removable
and I need my linkages completely internal. If there was no dihedral this would have been pretty simple ... I would just have to run a straight one piece coupler right across and there would been no binding etc.
However the dihedral has caused me to go with dual linkages in this second attempt ... and even this would not be a problem if I didn't need the stabs to be removable. I'd just run dual music wire torque rods short coupled to a servo/servos within the fuse and that would have been it. It's the fact that I want BOTH removable stabs AND hidden linkages that's my dilemma. ;)
I guess worse case scenario if I have to give up one of the desired features I'd make the stabs permanent and that would simplify things considerably but hey, I want it all! ;D One thing I know for sure, I will not compromise on the second requirement. If these linkages are visible that would negate all my attempts to make this plane "scale", so that is not an option.So ... I came up with a third idea ... run the control rods traditionally outside (first pic) and then cover the whole shebang within the sheeting that would "round out" that portion of the fuse. So ... I would have the best of both worlds! Nice solid no slop linkage but still hidden! Yeh!
Well, after doing all that work ... running extra rods, doing the supporting brackets for said rods, etc etc etc, the realization dawned on me that any degree of down elevator would cause the elevator to jam against that "rounded" sheeting.
(second pic) CRAP!!!!!! >:( >:( >:(
What a novice mistake! (I guess ONE scratch building project (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4354.0.html) doesn't take me out of "novice" category! lol!)Lesson to other scratch building novices ... think your moves out thoroughly (every scenario) before you commit your plan to action! So three tries ... three failures. Maybe I should give up now, admit defeat and just settle for either nice hidden linkages and no removable stabs ... or removable stabs but visible (to me anyway) linkages. :'( Nope ... can't do it. ;D (give up that is)
So I came up with a fourth plan which is so simple (in theory, lol!) that I can't believe I didn't think of it before. I would simply run a DIRECT servo to elevator connection. Just embed a servo arm into the elevator (see third pic) and install the corresponding servo into the fuse so that when I plug my stab into the fuse, it plugs directly into the servo. Simple, easy, absolutely no slop since there is no linkage involved.
But ....
Here's the catch. ::) One of the big problems with this situation is that the space to work back there is extremely tight (47mm wide to be exact) as you can see from pic #4. Good luck getting two servos butted up together base to base in that space! If only they made low profile (max 23mm tall) absolutely reliable high torque servos! Or do they? Hmmmm ....[ ;) To be continued ... ;D
Colin
Have you measured slim wing servos? They might fit.
Jack.
What about that gear door servo with a singe CF rod from one elevator to the other through the end of the servo arm. It won't be fast at transition but it would be scale. Of course you would have to set the CF rod back from the hinge line to get a pivoting motion.
Jack.
Too slow for an elevator application. I think this might work though. https://www.servocity.com/html/hs-77bb_low_profile.html#.VLwHoDx0yGl
Ok I've decided to order those low profile servos and if that plan doesn't work, I'm just gonna go with the torque rod approach, install the stabs permanently and be done with it. Not gonna muck around with this any longer cause I just have 13 days to completely finish this fuse. (structurally) That means all the windows, all the sheeting, the keel, the nose and the canopy.
If anyone's wondering if this is ever gonna end, it will ... trust me it will. :) Here's the updated timetable:
Fuse - 3 .5 months. (Half of October, November, December and January.)
Wing - 2 months (February and March)
Finish details to flying stage (glassing, paint and covering) - 1 month (April)
Maiden - Sat May 2nd. (rain date Sunday May 3rd. ;))
Completion (final detailing ie: decals, rivets, panel lines etc etc. ) - 2 months. (May and June)
It'll be interesting to look back and see how it all turns out relative to the above timetable. lol!
Colin
I hope you can get it all figured out, Colin. The plane look fabulous so far!
Hey! I'll plan to join you for that May 2 test flight with my Stranraer!
Wow, you guys are really ambitious, focused and goal oriented. I am working towards a May completion date too. I just have to determine the May of what year? Both of your build projects and those of other club members are incredible. It is going to be great to see all these projects come to fruition and enjoy seeing them fly.
Bruce
Quote from: piker on January 19, 2015, 10:00:08 AM
I hope you can get it all figured out, Colin. The plane look fabulous so far!
Hey! I'll plan to join you for that May 2 test flight with my Stranraer!
That'll be a sight! Two giant scale waterboats at the same time. :)
Colin
Yes! Wouldn't it be awesome if we piled in both our planes at the same time? ;D
Quote from: piker on January 20, 2015, 02:13:31 PM
Yes! Wouldn't it be awesome is we piled in both our planes at the same time? ;D
Oh gawd! :o
After all of this, I would just go jump off a cliff! :'( ;D
We have a Cliff! ;D
Far too much negativity. Come on you guys you're better than that.
Say something nice and positive with lots of hope and joy.
jack.
Spring is almost here! Just 8 more months! ;D
BTW, yesterday was Blue Monday :o
Quote from: piker on January 20, 2015, 03:43:46 PM
BTW, yesterday was Blue Monday :o
did they play New Order all day long :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYH8DsU2WCk
Greg
Keel getting there ... bulk heads (1/8 balsa sheet) and temporary stringer (the actual keel stringer will be spruce) dry fitted for alignment purposes before I commit to glue! :) She should be on her "feet" by tomorrow. ;)
C.
Progress has been slower than expected but isn't that always the case? :( Anyways I decided to go with 1/32 aircraft ply for sheeting the hull/keel. (I did 1/16 with my CL-415 (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4354.msg26657.html#msg26657)) Since this plane will be flying 90% of the time off land, I need something stronger than the balsa sheeted hull/keel the plans called for, yet something relatively light.
The other reason I went with 1/32 this time is that my hull/keel is much deeper/sharper on this plane which means more severe compound curves near the nose and at the step. As it is I had to do those sections one piece at a time to get the curves right. That's what took the majority of time, but now that's over so the rest of it should be much faster to do.
I feel good and bad (to a much lesser extent) about how it's coming out. I feel good because I know it'll look awesome how I've done it, but I feel kinda bad cause since I wanted to go super scale here I should have put more curvature in the framing of the bottom of the fuse back of the step because the full size has quite a dramatic "flair" in that area. Oh well. I missed that one. ;)
One of the things I did deliberately compromise on is the dept of the keel/hull. You'll notice that the full size's is about 14.28% of the fuse at that spot. (in the pic) Mine is only 10.28%. That's because I've found with my limited experience with flying a heavy flying boat off grass is the deeper the hull/keel, the harder it is for the plane to get moving. If the hull/keel is deeper it tends to "furrow" into the ground more than say a shallow bottomed one. But I must admit on one hand I kinda regret not building in the full 14%. ;D Funny though the plans call for it being 1.5cm high (at that spot) and even though mine is double that at 3cm, it's still not scale! lol!
Colin
Done. :)
Looks great.
jack.
Yes! Beautiful work!
Keep going. Spring is almost here! ;D
Never mind Spring ... month end (when I'm supposed to completely finish the structure of this fuse) is coming fast. I have an estimated 43 hours worth of work to do in seven days if I'm to make that goal. Gonna burn some midnight oil in the coming week, that's for sure.
C.
Making some progress. Windows installed. One passenger trial fitted. ;)
C.
very cool ... but why is pilot sitting back there :)
when Im done with him he wont look like a pilot. Besides those are Beats headphones! lol!
I'm gonna attempt to make a vacuum former so I can pull this canopy but I have some questions. ;) I've read about different styles (mainly the one hole vrs multi hole platen styles) and for the sake of simplicity I want to try the one hole version. My questions are:
1. How big should the platen be relative to the plug? For instance if my plug is 6 inches by 5 inches ... how much "excess" platen should there be? Is there some formula to this?
2. How high should the risers be between my plug and the platen? Is there some formula to this also?
3. How much bigger than the plug should my plastic be? (My plug is a simple canopy plug of 6" wide x 5" long x 2.5" high)
4. What release agent to use to release my canopy from my plug? (I've heard some use baby powder?)
Thanks!
Colin
I don't know about formulae but I used the perforated MDF as a base for mine.
I used 1/4" spacers so I would get a "tuck under" of about 1/8". This I would cut and sand off for a close fit.
Mine is 12" x 12" and it is too small. It causes crinkles in the film at base of curves that are too close to the edge. I think for a plug your size I would go 18" x 18". I drilled 1/16" holes every inch to create a matrix on a perforated platform. My thinking was to have uniform suction all over the base. I used window sealing foam on the base and attached the film with screws and duct tape to an oak frame, 1/4" x 1/2".
I heated the frame in an oven on two bricks to stop the film from contacting the racks when it sagged. I wrapped the bricks in aluminum foil to avoid any awkward conversations with the management. I used 375 degrees as my setting and the film sags pretty quickly. I had it hooked to a 5 Hp shop vac which was running and I used oven mitts to grab the frame. I lined it up as best I could and just pushed it into place and hoped for the best. It all happens very fast.
I just sprayed the plug with automotive top coat and lightly sanded it with a wet sanding, when it was dry. I did not use a release agent and the mold did not stick to the plug.
Jack.
Quote from: Papa on January 30, 2015, 04:34:55 PM
I used 375 degrees as my setting and the film sags pretty quickly.
Thanks Jack! Just the info I needed. One more thing ... what thickness plastic did you use? I'm intend to use this .3mm one from HK (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=17237), just wondering if that would be ok.
C
Nothing to report guys, this is just for my future reference. ;) There's a honking torque rod inside each one now hence the relatively big increase in weight from the non covered weight.
C.
What?! You're covering already? You're not supposed to do that! How will you get your pre-covering, finished construction, framed up photo?!
That's Sacrilege!
but it DOES look good :)
Quote from: piker on February 02, 2015, 04:30:03 PM
What?! You're covering already? You're not supposed to do that! How will you get your pre-covering, finished construction, framed up photo?!
That's Sacrilege!
but it DOES look good :)
It's a habit I guess ... (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4354.msg27248.html#msg27248) :) but in all seriousness, I had to do it cause since I'm now making the stabs permanent I have to glue them on in order to finish the sheeting on the tail portion (cause the sheeting merges with the stabs) and they'll be much harder to cover on the plane.
C
Well, I'm pleased to announce that I made some successful canopy pulls! Whoo hoo! I am stoked about this cause it was a big learning curve for me since I had never done vacuum forming before. Here's a couple of pics showing my first attempt way back in the build ... with the wrong tool, a heat gun. lol!
Colin
So where is the final product? Keeping us in suspense?
And here are my canopies with the right tool. :) A DIY vacuum former! I even have a "formula" for success now. For anyone who has questions about the actual vacuum former itself I can share details no probs. Suffice to say its a unihole version (much less common than the perforated hole ones that people tend to make) which is MUCH simpler and as you can see just as effective.
Colin
very nice!!
Way to go Colin. What dimensions did you use?
Jack.
That is so cool. I am SO gonna copy you!
Wonderful work, Colin!! That's friggin' brilliant.
I can see it now, "Colin's Custom Canopies"
Graham
Quote from: gmcnic on February 05, 2015, 06:25:17 PM
I can see it now, "Colin's Custom Canopies"
Graham
No, no, no! I hope not to ever have to use my oven again for this purpose. I was really torn cause I really wasn't comfortable with the idea of potentially toxic (?) fumes in a place where my wife cooks! Anyway I really needed to get this done and was in a pinch so I decided to chance it. Maybe I'll rig up another heat source for the future. ;)
Anyways ... I've been asked for vacuum former "details" so I figured I'd post them here in case anyone else can benefit for the info.
"One hole" platen vs Perforated platen.
Went with the one hole version cause it's simple! Just a board with a hole in the middle. :) As opposed to a vacuum "box" covered with a platen, perforated with potentially hundreds of holes.
My platen/board was made of some MDF from Home depot and I lined its border with some 1/2" x 1/2" weather stripping from Home depot to create a seal between it and the plastic holder frame when the vacuum did its thing. I drilled my hole (to fit my vacuum's hose) in the middle of it with a hole saw. Stuck my vacuum hose in there and it was a great tight fit.
I then made my separate 1" wide frame (that holds the plastic) by cutting out the inside of another MDF board that was the exact same size as my platen. To hold my plastic within the frame I just used my heavy duty stapler and stapled the plastic to the frame. You'll notice on one of the pics that I markered a border on the frame ... this represents where the seal (weather stripping) from the platen would contact the frame. I did this so that I would know where to put my staples ... I stapled
inside that area so that the staples wouldn't contact the seal of the platen when they are pressed together.
Using the stapler just happened to have another benefit. The MDF was so dense that the staples would only go in halfway. However this turned out to be a benefit cause when it was time to remove the plastic it was very easy to just pop off the staples with a screwdriver!
I also used some metal shelving "L" brackets as "guides" for my frame so that in the rush of putting the frame with the hot plastic onto the platen these guides ensure that I get them to fit exactly together to get a proper seal. That's it as far as construction of the vacuum former is concerned. Very simple.
As far as sizing is concerned I calculated that I needed a piece of plastic about 9.5" x 11" for my 4.5x6x2.5" plug. I then added an inch extra (for stapling to my frame) so the actual plastic needed was 10.5" x 12", however I ended up with my platen being 15x12.
Another thing that I thought was a big factor in a successful pull was the fact that I raised my plug up on 2cm standoffs (drywall screws! lol) so that it was standing over the hole as opposed to sitting on top of the hole. Obviously if it were sitting directly on the hole that would create a seal and the plastic would not be pulled.
However some people put a mesh screen over the hole and then the plug sits on top of that. What this does is (apparently) create a more even pull by diffusing the suction. However I wanted mine so tight that it would tuck under ... hence my standoffs. This allowed the plastic to not only be tightly pulled but tucked under the plug. I couldn't get a tighter pull than that!
As far as the actually heating of the plastic. I put my frame sitting on two pieces of 2x4 lumber as a "stand", about six inches under the broiler. (which is at the top of ovens) I had my platen hooked up to my vacuum next to the oven. I preheated the oven on "Hi" (my oven does not go by degrees in broil mode so I don't even know what temp "hi" is!) for 2.5 minutes. I then turned on my vacuum (I knew things would potentially happen fast once I popped the frame in!) popped the frame onto my "stand" in the oven and it then took another 1.25 minutes to droop to my desired 2 to 3 inches. I then whipped it out and onto the platen and wham, it was pretty much done in a second of so!
That's it!
Colin
Employed Mya to prepare the "passengers" and boy what a good job she did! :) The first four guys are going to a "Beats" Electronics sales convention (notice the headphones! ;)) but frankly I don't know where the heck the lumberjack is headed! lol!
Colin
That's fabulous! I need 1/7 WW1 pilot, can Maya help with that?
Quote from: sihinch on February 08, 2015, 08:55:31 PM
That's fabulous! I need 1/7 WW1 pilot, can Maya help with that?
She charges by the hour. ;)
BTW, I forgot a few shots. First one is of the elevator setup I finally settled on ... simple torque rods short coupled to a servo. Simple but proven and effective ... downside? H Stabs are now not removable. Real tight back there so it was a royal PITA to get everything set up just so.
I even forgot to make an adjustment to the servo before I glued it in (its permanent!) and had to go through the top of the fuse with a homemade screwdriver to get to the servo arm screw! (second pic) Third pic you can just see the end of the "screwdriver" doing its job. ;)
Last two was just before I started working on the nose. :)
Colin
Hi Colin, here's a wrench that may help.
http://www.lowes.ca/hand-tool-sets/kobalt-35-piece-standardmetric-right-angle-driver-set_g1185051.html?ProductSlot=5
Jack.
Got something similar but the space was too tight (maybe an inch tops) even for these type tools.
C
Ok finished the canopy framing.
First pic:
Will use strips of electrical tape to outline the frame on a spare canopy.
Second pic:
Canopy frame taped out on a spare canopy - front view.
Third pic:
Canopy frame taped out on a spare canopy - top view.
Fourth pic:
Canopy frame taped out on a spare canopy - side view.
Fifth pic:
Canopy frame now cut out based on the taped outline.
Sixth pic:
Canopy frame painted and ready for installation.
Colin
Well the fuse is structurally done for the most part. (I have some work to do yet on the bow) As she sits here she is just over four pounds. (67 ounces to be exact. ;)) After I fix the bow I just basically have to "fill and sand" a few more times and she'll be ready for glassing and paint. But I'm not gonna do that now ... after 435 hours I don't want to see this anymore for awhile. :o Time to move on to the wing. ;D
I have to say that this is by far the most challenging thing I've ever built since I've been in this hobby. Almost everything here was a "first" for me. Many things were done at least a couple times for the sake of "scale". ::) The compound curves which are all over this fuse kicked my a** good. But despite the beating I got, I'm quite pleased with my effort to match the full size. I'm especially pleased with how the tail turned out (over and under the H stabs) cause those curves were the hardest.
I'm also really pleased with how my canopy turned out since vacuum forming etc was completely new to me! Incidentally, as you can see I've also added "cabin" lighting ... had to make some yellow lens to cover my LEDs so as to replicate the incandescent lighting look. Pleased with that as well even though it's not really a practical feature since you'll probably not see that effect in the day. I guess if I fly in the evening at dusk it'll look cool but whatever, I thought it was a nice touch. :)
Colin
Magnificent!
I love those cabin lights.
Excellent job.
Jack.
Outstanding work Colin!! ;D
Glenn
Those lights will be amazing as the sun sets over Frenchman's Bay!
The Solent is looking really great, Colin! Keep up the good work!
Thanks guys! Spent a couple of hours today cleaning up the workshop in preparation for phase two ... the dreaded wing! ;)
C
To put the size of this beast in perspective, I'm six feet tall. ;D ;D
C.
Looks like it was taken from Maya's perspective.
Jack.
Quote from: wollins on February 18, 2015, 02:49:20 PM
To put the size of this beast in perspective, I'm six feet tall. ;D ;D
C.
man that is a lot of plane!! well done!!
Guys, when I was making my canopy the only thing I would have done different was to use slightly thicker plastic. The one I used (the .3mm sheets) from HobbyKing was a wee bit too flexible. It works fine, but I would have preferred something a little more substantial.
I notice Plastic World has a variety of sizes (http://plasticworld.ca/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_67) however I have no experience shopping with them. Those of you who have ... do you know if one needs to buy a certain amount ... I just need a few sheets for stock for future use. :)
Colin
I have shopped there for as little as $20 or $30.
They also have fiberglass cloth.
Nice ... must pay a visit! Thanks Mike!
Presenting ... the wing! :) Yet another balsa tree had to sacrifice its life for this project. This is the second major wood purchase so far for this plane. Arden at AJ's said "Wow, what are you building ... a house!?" My answer ... No, a boat ... that flys! ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, now for my reference ...
The bottom half of the fuse was sheeted with 3/32 balsa and the top half 1/16. I used 1/32 aircraft ply for the keel.
The wing will use the majority of the wood below that I bought for $160 at A&J's:
Six sheets of 1/16 x 4 x 36 med/hard balsa for center wing sheeting.
Four sheets of 1/16 x 4 x 48 hard balsa for LE to spar sheeting.
Four sheets of 1/16 x 4 x 48 balsa for sheeting/planking the tip floats and nacelles.
Six sheets of 3/32 x 4 x 48 balsa for the ribs.
Two 3/4 x 1/2 x 48 balsa stock for the LE.
One sheet 1/4 x 4x 48 balsa for the TE.
Two sheets 1/4 x 4x 48 balsa for the main and rear spars.
Four sheets 1/4 x 3x 48 balsa for the main and rear spars.
Eight 1/6 x 1/4 x 36 balsa stock for the cap strips.
Two sheets of 3/32 x 6 x 36 balsa for shear webs.
Four 3/16 x 3/16 x 48 bass/spruce/poplar stock for the shear web braces/rails. (top and bottom)
Colin
Technical question for you technical guys. :) Does the thickness of an airfoil affect its lift? (everything else being equal) An example ... would a semi-symmetrical airfoil with say ... a 15% airfoil create more lift than one with a 12% airfoil? (all other factors being equal) And if so ... where's the max point that you can take that thickness cause I sense that at some point it would probably either becomes "unworkable" or too inefficient? (too much drag etc)
Colin.
You can play "what happens if I change something" games on the NASA airfoil simulator:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/foil3.html
(You might have to play around with the Java security settings to get it to run, and of course you will need Java installed.
They have instructions of what settings to make)
You have to make sure that as you change thickness you don't increase camber.
Camber is a fancy way of describing the curvature of the the line that is the average of the top and bottom shape of the airfoil.
If the airfoil is more or less flat bottomed then changes in thickness do increase camber.
If you play around a bit you will find that Clmax is only slightly affected by thickness, much more affected by camber.
They stop thickness at 20%, so no way to test anything thicker than that.
I can't add much beyond what Pat has said, but generally (simplistically) I would say that the thicker the section is, the more lift it will generate (assuming an efficient/appropriate airfoil shape), but at the cost of drag. If you want my opinion, I wouldn't go past 15%. 12% is very typical for models.
For reference, I recall the scale section for the Sandringham was 18% (or was it more?....) but I chose 15% for my model as a good compromise between scale appearance and drag.
Do you know the scale section of the Solent?
Thanks Pat!
Quote from: piker on February 23, 2015, 11:08:49 AM
If you want my opinion, I wouldn't go past 15%. 12% is very typical for models.
For reference, I recall the scale section for the Sandringham was 18% (or was it more?....) but I chose 15% for my model as a good compromise between scale appearance and drag.
Do you know the scale section of the Solent?
Don't know the scale section of the Solent but from what I gather from the other information concerning both planes (Solent and Sandringham) I'm guessing they would be very similar. In any event, I was considering thickening the airfoil of this model because just by eyeballing the plans, the airfoil seemed VERY slim to me.
Upon measuring it turns out that my suspicions are correct. The airfoil is 10.71%. Now that you have given me your specs I'm gonna bump that up to at least 13% to play it safe and better accommodate my intended AUW. I don't know if it's because Ivan's planes are designed to be built ridiculously light that he's going for a less draggy wing? Ivan's planes are famous for being great flyers but at their typical cubic wing loading of a kite I imagine
anything would fly great!
In any event, since this plane is gonna be more of a landlubber than a flying boat in terms of practical use I've had to build it somewhat hefty (read "normal" for this size. lol!) because earth is a lot less forgiving than water! (A "thump" beaks a lot more stuff than a "splash". ;)) Since I'm pretty much redesigning this wing (more ribs, heftier spar etc) I figured why not manipulate the airfoil because if I can get a little more lift, at not too much of a cost in drag that can't be a bad thing, right?
Having said that I'm not so worried about drag since I'm building more of a lumbering giant here as opposed to something nimble so airspeed is the least of my concerns. Course I'm new to all this so this is just my "sense" of "what should be" given my circumstances, so feel free to advise if need be.
C.
Colin - if you use 18A CC ESCs then it would be Piker legal!?
Yeah but I suspect there might be some carnage in the air around that circuit! lol!
Was I meant to build this plane? ;D ;D (and no I didn't photoshop that in! :) )
C
Yep! Collin's plane ;D
Ok fine, so it has an extra "L", but everyone makes mistakes! ;)
I was worrying about getting my wing incidence right and then I saw this. I'm not worried anymore. ;D
http://youtu.be/ZOtVyxwNHQg
So I finally started in on the wing today. (needed a break after the fuse marathon! lol!) I have to say in fairness to Ivan I don't think I'll call this an Ivan Pettigrew Solent anymore cause I've changed it so much that if she flies like a pig (or worse doesn't fly at all) it wouldn't be fair to him. His planes fly great! So why mess with a proven design? Well for one ... I just can't leave well alone with this darn hobby. :( I even have to modify arfs!
In any event, the changes here started because of my desire to build it more scale ... than once you change some things ... they lead to other things that HAVE to be changed since the original design was not designed around the changes! Bit of a catch 22.
Having said that most of my fuselage changes were cosmetic ... but they had to have the structural support to "support" those changes. More structural support means more weight, more weight means more support etc etc etc. Again, a vicious cycle!
The second (and more important) reason is that Ivan's flying boat designs are not meant for flying off of land. (and rightly so since they are flying boats afterall.) Therefore they're really fragile. However since I fly off land 99% of the time, I have to beef up the design. (the CL-415 was the same situation)
You can see an example of how this really is now a design "very loosely based on an Ivan Pettigrew plan" in the pic. :)
- That spar you see is about 70% thicker and about 30% "higher".
- Airfoil/ribs about 30% bigger (mine's the cardboard one under the outlined one on the plan above it)
- Camber has subsequently changed
- Wingspan is gonna be about an inch wider
- Ribs have increased from 28 (that the plans call for) to 42
- Motors mounts will be completely redesigned since his design are based on "stick mounts" based on the old GWS type brushed motors! (remember those, guys?)
- I'll be attempting to add the scale Gouge flaps. (Ivan's plans don't call for any flaps)
So ... the wing is gonna be even more changed than the fuse and really ... is there much more to a wing other than the ribs (airfoil) and supporting structures?
Wouldn't it be great if she flies? ;D
Colin.
P.S. So why the heck am I rambling on about this? (in other words shut up and just build the plane! lol!) Because a few people have asked me privately about this stuff, so I figured in case any one else wondered if I was crazy (or stupid) to mess with a proven design ... that's my story ... err ... reasoning and I'm sticking to it! ;D
Since nothing (measurements and spacing of ribs, size of spars etc etc) is according to the plans anymore, I've decided to do a mock up (with foam board) of everything before I start cutting balsa. That way I can make my adjustments to the foam to make sure everything fits perfectly first before I commit to the real thing. This should help me to cut down on my wastage of valuable wood!
C.
Now I can start cutting some wood. :) The dots in the first pic are reference dots that I used to find the high/low spots across the ribs. Since these were all individually hand cut and the airfoil and the chord is tapered it was difficult to get them just right.
To find those spots I used a piece of thread and laid it end to end horizontally along the ribs on the dots. However some spots were mostly 1 to 3 mil off which is not a big deal in of itself but would probably show up in a somewhat wavy pattern in the sheeting over top (forward of the spar) and the covering. (aft of the spar) These and other inconsistencies will be fixed in the actual balsa ribs.
So, some progress is being made. ;) BTW, this is just the center section of the wing but it's the most difficult part since it houses the nacelles and the flaps.
C.
Wow, Colin, that's dedication. Building a whole mock-up wing before you started building the actual wing. I'd have been winging it as I go along! ;D
Quote from: sihinch on March 03, 2015, 09:32:14 AM
Wow, Colin, that's dedication. Building a whole mock-up wing before you started building the actual wing. I'd have been winging it as I go along! ;D
Yeah, it's a
lot more work but it'll save me on any more "redos". Every "redo" uses more wood and I've done a ton of redos thus far so I literally can't afford to waste any more wood on this project. You don't want to know how much coin I'm into this just in wood alone!
Colin
My next project. :o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_j1EP5gwqA
I'm joking of course! ;D
I think you should! :o
Cool but ugly :)
believe it or not, that was the first plastic model kit I ever built. I think it was Lindberg.
Quote from: piker on March 13, 2015, 10:57:44 AM
Cool but ugly :)
Ok, since we're talking ugly I'll just build this one instead. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VscDLKQnpQk
Lost a bit of motivation so progress has slowed considerably. Hard to maintain focus for such a long slog. :( Anyway got the center wing framed up at least. Ribs made with 3/32 balsa except the "end ribs" which are 1/16 aircraft ply. You can see the wing joiner box and actual wing joiner (for outer wing sections) in separate pics. Will tackle the nacelles next.
Colin
P.S. BTW, that bend in the spar is deliberate. ;)
That is great progress. Looking good Colin.
Jack.
Thanks Jack. Believe it or not its you guys on this forum who keep me motivated to press on ... with your comments, suggestions and even criticisms. Often time I might not feel like doing anything but I feel a certain responsibility to "report" progress when I know people have an interest.
This forces me to keep on keepin' on. My primary reason for these build threads was always to keep a record of my builds for future reference but along the way I get invaluable help and input from you guys which is greatly appreciated.
Colin
Shut up and keep building! ;D
(I must admit that picture of your fuselage with the wing on it looks pretty nice :) )
Quote from: piker on March 14, 2015, 04:01:02 PM
Shut up and keep building! ;D
See what I mean Jack? ;D
Well there's positive reinforcement and negative.
I like the carrot approach someone else likes the stick!!!
Jack.
That canopy/cockpit looks amazing!
Hey Colin!
I was only kidding when I said "shut up" ;D No update today?
O.K., O.K., I'll admit that YOUR enthusiasm and regular updates are certainly helping to keep me motivated to plug away at the Stranraer. i sure hope we can fly the beasts together (with Michael too) soon!
If Rogo is Michael Too, who is Michael One?
LOL
Jack.
Quote from: piker on March 15, 2015, 11:29:39 PM
I was only kidding when I said "shut up" ;D No update today?
Well I was most hurt and upset by that comment. ;) So much so that I called my mommy and complained about being bullied by my RC plane friends. She said "never mind son, here's what you do. Just "accidentally" step on one of their planes and that will make you feel better." ;D
Ok, all kidding aside now ... no updates today but I'm excited about this week cause I closed the studio for March break so I'm hoping to get a fair bit done on this wing.
Colin
Little bit of progress today. Partially sheeted the wing bottom, got the leading edges mostly finished and got some attachment points for the outer wings made. (third pic) His snap link system (shown in the third pic just to the right of the wing) seemed not robust enough for my wing so I used some T nuts.
Progress is slow but steady. :)
Colin
Nice sanding on the LE. Keep it going Colin - spring is in the air......
Crap this is getting heavy. I've "budgeted" 64 ounces for this wing (just the wood component) and we're up to 14ozs already and this is just the center piece without the nacelles and flaps. :(
Colin
It's alright - the wing tips will weigh less, they have a narrower chord!
Colin,
Truly inspirational work for those of us who aspire to being able to build. I visit a few of the threads every time I need inspiration and your threads never disappoint. I think you really should consider one of those ugly birds...they both have a certain ugly weirdness that is...weirdly attractive
Jack,
"If Rogo is Michael Too, who is Michael One?"
Groan...
Hey Colin, that landing gear in front of the wing is not scale and its too heavy. That's where all your weight is.
Happy St. Patrick's Day.
Jack.
Quote from: Papa on March 17, 2015, 09:17:44 PM
Hey Colin, that landing gear in front of the wing is not scale and its too heavy. That's where all your weight is.
Happy St. Patrick's Day.
Jack.
;D ;D ;D ;D
@Simon, yeah but they have those tip floats! We'll see how it pans out.
@Bill, thanks for the comments, it's comments from the members that keep ME inspired!
Ok, today I have an ambitious goal. I want to complete the supporting structure for all four nacelles today! :o Wish me luck ... will post progress report tonight.
Colin
Awesome, Colin! That wing looks great!
Luck!
You're already lucky to be home, working on your plane!
Quote from: wollins on March 18, 2015, 09:15:07 AM
Ok, today I have an ambitious goal. I want to complete the supporting structure for all four nacelles today! :o Wish me luck ... will post progress report tonight.
Colin
It never ceases to amaze me as to how wrong I can be in estimating time for a given project. :) After five hours I just managed to do the mock up side rails. Took me an hour just to figure out what approach I was gonna use! Anyways, this was the time consuming part ... getting that fit just right. BTW, each of those "rails"/"frames" are made up of two separate pieces.
I also thought I would have to do some adjusting in terms of what the size of my nacelles should be since my airfoil was increased from the plans. Turns out that the nacelle size as per the plans IS the right size for the
increased airfoil! Full size nacelles are 133% and 145% of the airfoil respectively and that's roughly what they are now with mine.
Anyways, now I just have to cut out my actual wood frames based on my foam mockups, do my cross braces, add my formers, do my stringers (if sheeting), or do the planking, my motor mounts ... etc etc etc. Should be done by tomorrow night. (Yeah suuuuuurrrrreeee ... lol!) One day at a time, one step at a time. I'm pleased with how it's coming though.
Colin.
Before you cut just make sure you have adequate propeller tip clearance for the props you plan to use.
jack.
Yeah, it'll fit up to 11 inchers but of course at those limits it would look kinda weird. (too close) In any event 10 inch four bladers were the intended props from the get go so it's all good. :)
Colin
Hey! Don't feel bad. It took me 8 years to build mine ;D
Quote from: piker on March 18, 2015, 11:42:20 PM
Hey! Don't feel bad. It took me 8 years to build mine ;D
I remember ... you just wanted to get it right. ;)
Been awhile since my last update but some stuff got done. ;) Doesn't seem like much but LOTS of behind the scenes, finicky (read time consuming) stuff had to be done ... lots of soldering, custom fitting my motor connector water sealing standoffs etc, etc ETC!
As you can see in the last pic I decided to do the same waterproofing trick that I did in my water bomber (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4354.msg28248.html#msg28248)by sealing my motor connector wires from the inside within the firewalls. This way, once I close these nacelles there is gonna be absolutely no water access (through here anyway lol!) should I have a mishap/dunk in the drink. Doing it this way also allows me to remove any motor for replacement or servicing without disturbing the integrity of my "seal". (The motor cross mounts form part of the seal by the way.)
The weight of my wiring (14ga) alone is more than half of some models I've had in the past! :o ;D Not to worry though there's a LOT of excess (almost half) wiring there as I wanted to be conservative in my cutting to length. This is because I'm still not totally decided if I'll seat my ESCs within the fuse as in the past or on the underside of my wing. (leaning toward the latter though)
Now to close these suckers up and start planking the nacelles. (dreading planking :( )
Colin.
P.S. In case you're thinking "those firewalls look a little uneven" ... they're not glued in yet. ;) ;D
Slooooowly ... sloooooowly. :)
Impressive!
Slooooowly ... ;) Formers made with 3/32 balsa. First former on each nacelle doubled up (with 3/32) since I'm playing with the idea of attaching my cowls with magnets so I'll need something more solid to attach my magnets to.
Slooooowly ... ;D
Colin
P.S. Methinks the next big build will have to be a kit. ;) (not a short kit either ... a FULL kit!)
Keep going Colin. It's going to be a stunner. I can't wait to see it finished.
That's amazing Colin.
It's much more work than any project I've ever tackled.
Thanks for the encouragement guys! The build is challenging (which I like) but the hardest part for me is to keep up the motivation required to maintain a steady pace for a looooong build. It's a real pain to cut, measure and shape every part individually day in day out. Having said that I've been able to consistently put in an average of 4 hours a day since October 9th.
Just taken a couple of weeks off when I felt burnt out but that was about it. I'm fortunate that my business affords me the time (in between clients) to put in the time cause if I had a 9 to 5 I could not do this period. (I really admire the guys with "regular" jobs who still are able to do these builds ... I dunno how they do it quite frankly.)
Anyway, finally the dreaded (for me) planking is next. I'm gonna try a new technique (for me anyways) that should supposedly make it easier. As you can imagine, cutting each skinny strip (gonna try to make them as wide as possible though) of planking, shaping them and then gluing them (for four nacelles) is gonna be yet another example of the tedium that can be associated with a scratch build project. It's gonna all be worth it in the end though! ;D
BTW, just did some final testing of my landing lights. Boy are these babies bright! These tests were done on just about five volts and I'm gonna be putting 6 volts through them so we're gonna be able to see them no problem in bright sunlight. (which is exactly what I wanted.)
I'm kinda seeing the light at the end of the tunnel cause after the planking of the nacelles I just have one last major part which is the flaps. (trying to do the scale Gouge flaps). The outer wings should be very straightforward and relatively quick. (tip floats will be a little bit of a pain though since that requires a little more planking as well.)
THEN ... we can get to "finishing" (covering, painting etc) which is my favourite part. Still hoping for a May maiden!
C
P.S. Gonna cheat a bit with the cowlings and order some scale ones tonight. (as opposed to making them myself cause I'm running out of time with this project)
Well, the planking went as well as I could hope ... glad I'm done with that though! ;D New technique worked well. Used 1/16 medium hard sheet. (1/4 inch wide plank strips)
First two pics are not sanded ... third pic is the preliminary first sanding ... no filler yet.
Colin.
It seems impossible but it looks better and better each time you touch.
Lovely work.
Jack.
Hey Colin!
I've been quiet lately with travelling and other distractions.
I just wanted to say how fantastic your big build is coming along. Good work, Man!
Same applies to everyone else who has been building away this winter. What a great club!
When I grow up I wanna be able to build something as complex as this. ;D
https://youtu.be/HH0q4OYYHl8
Simple, water tanks and scoops, no biggie EH!
LOL Jack
Quote from: piker on April 13, 2015, 11:11:28 AM
Hey Colin!
I've been quiet lately with travelling and other distractions.
I just wanted to say how fantastic your big build is coming along. Good work, Man!
Thanks! How's that Stranraer coming along? Still gonna maiden next month? ;)
Colin
Colin,
It is really cool to go back and see the progress from the beginning to now. This is a project you should be truly proud of! I can't wait till the big day!
Glenn
Quote from: wollins on April 15, 2015, 12:13:25 AM
Thanks! How's that Stranraer coming along? Still gonna maiden next month? ;)
The Strany is off to the side for a bit while I get my other builds (Red Eagle, SkyWritter, three Morphines, Sandringham, and the Sea Fury) ready for the summer. Um. Ya. May 2nd ain't gonna happen for the Stranraer.
Oh well. I'll get it done eventually ;D
Decided to take a much needed (albeit short) break from wood. Did a little scale feature on the props. Anti icing strips. :)
Colin
Nice detail!
So... you didn`t mention if you`re still on track for a May 2 test flight... two weeks away... :)
@piker you can't put pressure on if you've decided you Stranraer is a 2016 bird!
I wasn`t putting pressure. I was asking the same question out of interest...
Quote from: piker on April 16, 2015, 09:51:55 AM
Nice detail!
So... you didn`t mention if you`re still on track for a May 2 test flight... two weeks away... :)
Ahem no. :) The adjusted schedule is now May 16th ... depending. ;) lol! It's scary how many things are left to do ... mostly simple. The thing that's the biggest threat to the "schedule" is the flaps. You might have noticed that I'm leaving those for the very last. ;)
Ya. There are a lot of details in the construction of a big bird like that.
My biggest "to do", before I can start the finishing process, is the interplane struts, cabane struts, and the flying wires. The flying wires are functional on the Stranraer, so I can't leave them for later like I have on the SE5a.
Been working on my wing hold down set up. (completely different from the plans of course ;D) Gap under wing is to accommodate my water seal.
Colin
Wiring for four motors, two flaps, two ailerons and ten lights ... about 9.5ozs. Not bad. ;D
Ok boys, (and girls? :)) ) we are cookin' with gas now! Spent a few hours on Sunday doing my first (of about three) preliminary sanding sessions on the fuse and she's lookin' good!
Just finished framing up the top of the center wing (to merge with the top of the fuse) and will try to get the sheeting done this afternoon.
Goal is to get the outer wings (remember those? lol!) framed up by the weekend so that I have about four days to work on the flaps. (much pondering needs to be done here)
I see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yay! If I meet these goals I may just still be able to maiden next month. :)
Colin
P.S Every plane that I own MUST have a bit of orange on it. Since this plane's scheme has nothing to do with orange, I made my wing bolts orange. lol!
Wow! Wonderful construction!
Glenn and I were chatting the other day about what a great builder you've become over a short period of time! Fantastic work! Keep going!
The first float fly is in a week and a half. Of course we won't be ready with this year's builds, but we can certainly get out the water bombers. ;D
Impressive and beautiful!
Quote from: piker on April 22, 2015, 12:00:14 PM
Glenn and I were chatting the other day about what a great builder you've become over a short period of time!
Thanks guys! Coming from you veteran builders that means a lot. Rob it's all your fault, I think you've created a monster! lol!
Ok, got the top sheeting done, not my cleanest work, but that's what filler is for right? ;)
Colin
That's looks so majestic! Wow! What a beauty. Nice one.
That bottom picture reminds me of a moose.
Great work Colin. It will look impressive on the water.
Jack.
Man, I've just realized. You're going to have to maiden this work of art! Yikes!
Quote from: Papa on April 22, 2015, 09:47:29 PM
That bottom picture reminds me of a moose.
Yeah I think I went a little overboard with the chine rails and didn't flush out the sides of the nose enough. Makes her look a bit gaunt! lol! The trouble is I don't have any shots with that angle of the full size so I winged it a bit.
The closest pic to that angle is the one I've attached (first pic) but as you can see its angled off to the side. All the others I have are sortof from the bottom looking up. I am pleased with the side profile though, I think I nailed that one. ;D (especially the nose ;))
Colin.
I think you nailed it just right. Its that monolithic piece of balsa nose in that one picture that amused me. I was not being critical just humorous. When you add the mooring hatch and the black anti glare paint it will look perfect.
Jack.
Mooring hatch? What mooring hatch? ??? Crap, that means I have to add yet another detail? ;D ;D ;D Didn't take it as criticism Jack, its all good ... matter of fact I welcome any comment on this beast of a build, gives me some much needed outside perspective. Sometimes when you're so close to something day in and day out you lose perspective and miss the most obvious things.
Colin
Quote from: sihinch on April 22, 2015, 10:13:53 PM
Man, I've just realized. You're going to have to maiden this work of art! Yikes!
I know ... its gonna be off water though so that's less of a stress. ;D
Sorry, did not mean to add work. The hatch is low down on the nose and allowed crew to hook up to mooring buoys.
Jack
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Short_Solent_4_of_Aquila_Airways.jpg)
This may show it better.
(http://www.ginasaitutakidesire.com/Image1.gif)
Hey Jack, I was just being a smart a**, I know about the hatch etc. However what I didn't have are those pics! I thought I had every MARK IV Solent pic available. I see in one of yours that the anti ice strips extend right to the tips unlike mine which I painted based on another pic ... whose subject obviously had "worn" anti ice strips. lol! So ... what other pics do you have up your sleeve my friend? ;)
Colin
I just typed "Short Solent Images" in Google and they were some of the ones that appeared.
Magic EH!
Jack.
Quote from: sihinch on April 22, 2015, 10:13:53 PM
Man, I've just realized. You're going to have to maiden this work of art! Yikes!
Hey Simon, imagine if you had to maiden this! :o The pilot flies it with total confidence and this has got to be upwards of 20K what with the two turbines etc. Check out the low passes ... boy's got some big cahunas! :)
https://youtu.be/C0VND9wD9B0
Wow! Yep, wouldn't want to maiden that. But they do say you shouldn't play with toys you can't afford!
Toys you can't afford are OK it's woman you can't afford that you can't play with.
LOL
Jack.
Started on my outer wing ribs and look what arrived today ... my cowls! Whoo hoo!
Colin.
Broke out the trusty laser to make sure the outer wings are exactly even. ;) The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter so we're getting there ... slowly but surely! ;D
Colin
Who lives in the tent in the corner?
Quote from: sihinch on April 26, 2015, 11:03:54 AM
Who lives in the tent in the corner?
The two girls rent it from time to time. ;D
Ok not a heck of a lot has been done ... I'd hoped to be finished both outer wings and tips floats by last weekend and finishing the flaps today but ... I didn't cater for the good weather. Seems like when it gets nice outside the family wants to do stuff. Funny how that happens. ::) :)
Anyways, almost finished the left outside wing ... had to figure out how to make the join somewhat seamless with the center wing since my nacelles jutted out into the outer wing area a bit. (they're bigger than the ones in the plans which would have fit quite nicely. ::))
What made it a little more complicated than it should have been was the fact that this plane has drooped leading edges from the outboard nacelles towards the wing tips. So there was a disparity in the levels of leading edges at the join area. (Compare the LE to the left of the nacelle and the right of the nacelle in the last pic)
Anyway after much pondering I figured it out and am pleased to say I think it came out really nicely. (see "full fit" in pic #5) Since I had done all the ribs (left and right) together and I've already done my "pondering", the right side shouldn't take me nearly as long. Course I still have to do the LE shaping and the ailerons etc but that doesn't take any thought. :)
So ... progress IS being made ... albeit more slowly than I would have liked. Time to take advantage of this weather now and take a break from this wing ... I'll do my second sanding of the fuse. Tip floats next (after I finish these outer wings) then the dreaded flaps and then I onto the final stage ... covering etc!
Every spare moment I have is spent now trying to get this thing done so when I read about you guys racing etc, I envy you!
Colin
P.S. Course when I say the "final" stage I mean to the maiden. With the plans I have for this beast in terms of detailing etc I can't see it being REALLY "done" until like our FunFly!
New Nooner wings! ;D On a serious note ... got some more sanding of the fuse and the other side (outer wing) mostly done today.
Colin
Guys, if I wanted to cover with layers of lighter weight FG (as opposed to just one heavier weight) would you lay it on at the time of the wetting process (immediately on top of the first or preceding layer) or would you wait until preceding layer is dry ... then sand as usual and THEN lay down your subsequent payer .... etc etc? I've never glassed with layers before.
Colin
I would do it one layer at a time, less chance of trapping air and making a bubble.
Jack.
Colin,
Definitely one layer at a time for Jack's reason. Coat the wing with a sealer and apply the glass with water-based urethane as per Ken Manuel's FFX fighters. Much easier than glass or epoxy. Lots of strength.
Caution: do not fold the fibreglass cloth around the trailing edge because it will bubble there. Extend the glass cloth (top and bottom) past the trailing edge and then cut/sand off after curing.
Frank
Thanks guys. Got my last pre glassing sanding done today. She's as smooth as she's ever gonna get for this stage. There comes a time when a guy just has to say "enough is enough". lol! After all there's a whole bunch more "filling and sanding" to come after glassing. Then there's a bunch more after priming! :(
Colin
P.S Couldn't resist a shot with the two flying boats side by side. ;D
Progress has been painfully sloooooowwww ... buy hey ... slow progress is better than no progress, right? ;D Got my ailerons framed up and nav lights installed. (boy was that ever a PITA >:()
Colin
You have heard or trifocals EH?
LOL
Jack.
What you talkin' about, my eyesight is perfect! Now where the heck is that bottle of glue that I just had here? ;D
Outer wings attached. (mock up) At this stage they each weigh 5.5ozs and the goal weight for each is 10ozs. I still have to add to that the tip floats, servo frames, attachment points and sheeting for each side so it might be tight.
Colin
Tip floats framed up.
If there's anything that would make me quit the building aspect of this hobby it's planking ... specifically tip float planking. Thank god that's done. ;D
Colin
Looks like something from Star Wars.
LOL
Jack.
Quote from: wollins on May 15, 2015, 04:49:21 PM
If there's anything that would make me quit the building aspect of this hobby it's planking ... specifically tip float planking.
On the other hand, I do love to carve and shape. ;D Still a wee bit of filling and sanding to do but essentially the tip floats are done.
Colin
Started the process of trying to figure out how (and if) these scale Gouge flaps can be added to this plane. This is the part I've been dreading from the start of the build and so I figured I'd leave it for last. Well, the time has come so nothing to do now but have at it.
As you can see from the diagram it's quite complex. Maybe that's why it was never modeled? (to my knowledge) Anyway, I'm giving myself a week tops to design it and if I can't by then it's "regular" flaps for me!
Colin
Hi Colin, since I am trying to learn as much as I can, I just drew this up wondering if it would work as a decent structure for gouge flaps?
Having the main wing ribs with pins and have the flap ribs sandwich the main ribs.
Just curious. Thanks.
Hah! A variation of that very concept is what I intend to try if the track system proves too complicated or impractical. Jack was the one who first introduced me to the "variation". ;) Awesome ... great minds think alike? ;D
Colin
I think the gouge flaps would be very cool 8)
You might want to "push" them from both ends to make sure they move smoothly.
If you need any help with any machined bits (like G-10 rails for example) let me know.
Pat MacKenzie
Quote from: pmackenzie on May 19, 2015, 09:16:10 PM
You might want to "push" them from both ends to make sure they move smoothly.
That's my biggest concern, Pat. For this to work without binding (which can be disastrous ... imagine ONE binding in flight!) the fit has to be extremely precise and the movement has to be very smooth and also very precise. I find it quite daunting to be honest. Have a feeling I'm over my head on this one but we'll see. I'm starting some mock ups tomorrow.
Colin.
P.S. BTW, I appreciate your offer.
Ok the multi track system will not work. (for me) However ... I'm working on something that has at least a 50/50 chance of working. ;D Will know by tomorrow night if it'll work. Stay tuned! :)
Colin
I actually think I might just get this whole flap thing to work. ;D Now this comment might be a bit premature but while I've come to the conclusion that my mock up can only go so far in determining whether I can overcome the biggest challenge of this, (binding) it does look promising. You can see in the video that it does move as evenly as can be expected given the fact that everything is bendy and flexy in my mockup. This is even without a feature I intend to incorporate to ensure that it does not bind. The geometry works so now I will actually commit to building the real thing (on one side) incorporating my idea to stop any binding.
I'm no engineer but common sense tells me that the first thing that needs to be done is to make sure that the supporting structure and the flap itself needs to be extremely rigid given the fact that it's only being supported at the sides. (with the sliding pins)
My plan originally was to build it really tight at the sides thereby decreasing any side to side shifting ... thereby cutting down the chances of binding. However because we're dealing with wood here, if those tolerances are too tight now you have binding just based on contact friction. Then I thought no probs I'll cover the sides with something really slick (CF sheet or G10 sheet?) and wax or somehow lube them from time to time. Then I thought ... are you kidding??? Who's got the time (or the memory) to be waxing flaps from time to time? lol! Scale isn't worth THAT much effort ... its not like this is gonna win some award at Scale Masters or anything!
So... the plan now is to make the tolerances "normal" but run a guide "trough" or track in the middle of the flap with a couple of corresponding guide pins to make it run perfectly straight through the entire throw/movement. Hard to explain but with any luck it'll work and you be able to see what I mean then. :) So if it does work, the mechanics won't be scale but the movement will ... and that's all that matters cause that's what people will see right? ;)
Colin
P.S. My apologies for the video quality ... I was holding my phone in my right hand over my shoulder while trying to move the flap with my left hand. :)
https://youtu.be/2SxjoIDVB0s
That will work fine. If using wood to wood contact then rub lots of candle wax into the wood. That will lubricate it. Use stubs of good quality candles. Try that out.
jack.
Another alternative would be to cover all the contact points in Polyurethane and use a little Vaseline as a lubricant.
jack.
Was at Hobby King to get some stuff and saw this little "distraction" on sale. So ... I got it. Took a break from the Solent and put this together in about the same time it would take me to frame up one aileron of the Solent! Gotta love an ARF. ;D
Colin
SO, gonna fly it tomorrow afternoon EH!?
Jack.
Quote from: wollins on May 24, 2015, 07:44:28 PM
Was at Hobby King to get some stuff ....
Colin
Hobby King?
Nice distraction!
Quote from: Papa on May 24, 2015, 08:11:18 PM
SO, gonna fly it tomorrow afternoon EH!?
Jack.
Was gonna fly it today but realized I haven't renewed MAAC (or Temac for that matter ... ooops!) yet.
Quote from: Michael on May 24, 2015, 08:26:22 PM
Quote from: wollins on May 24, 2015, 07:44:28 PM
Was at Hobby King to get some stuff ....
Colin
Hobby King?
Sorry, should have said I was visiting Hobby King's website.
Ok back to the build. Finished up the flap supports with their respective CF tracks. Just have to neaten them up by sanding the pin support blocks to match the outline of the supports. Now onto framing up the actual flaps.
Colin
P.S BTW, pics #2 and #3 are not the same. ;) In the third pic, the CF track have been surrounded/overlaid with 1/32 ply.
Looks very scale in the amount of movement.
Nice work.
Jack.
Yeah there's not a heck of a lot of movement relative to our typical RC throws. It does add an additional 50 sq inches or so to the wing area though since it extends the chord unlike other "regular" flaps.
Colin
Ok some progress. Did the mock ups. Even though this was a mock up I had to position my servos for real to make sure that the geometry was correct. I have to say they're moving quite smoothly. So much so that I'm tempted to run them just like this without my tracking system. (K.I.S.S. principle?)
Won't be long now ... this was the last major construction piece! Course the jury is still out on whether they will track without binding/jamming under "real" conditions (wind) so I still have to run some tests to come to a final verdict. I have quite an innovative test in mind which will put this concern to rest once and for all. ;) Stay tuned! ;D
Colin
https://youtu.be/c3iJzRGYNYU
I do believe you've got it.
Looks great, and no holding them out the window of the car at 60 mph while Maya works the switch is not a great idea.
LOL
Jack
Quote from: Papa on May 29, 2015, 08:38:38 PM
no holding them out the window of the car at 60 mph while Maya works the switch is not a great idea.
LOL
Jack
Jack, I had a REALLY stressful day today and what you said above gave me such a visual that I almost laughed until I cried! Thanks! :) BTW, this thread has become so long and tedious that I think it's just you and me left buddy! We've lost the others ... however I did warn folks when I started that this was gonna be a marathon and listening to my long winded ramblings about the various issues I'm encountering (helps me to solve them) is not for the faint of heart. ;D ;D
Colin
P.S. My "wind test" is actually more creative than your suggestion. ;)
We're all following the thread.
I know ... I was just kidding. ;)
Yep! We're all still here and really appreciating the fine work you're doing.
Keep going and keep us entertained ;D
BTW, the flaps look fantastic!
Hi Colin,
I follow the thread but do not comment much, just kind of a lurker I guess. I am in envy of your skill and tenacity. Great job and looking forward to seeing the beast fly.
Yep.. Still watching ;D
I'm waiting for the big finish!!!
FLaps COMPLETE! Waiting for a break in the weather for "wind testing". ;D ;D
Colin
Wind Test #1 completed - SUCCESS! No jamming or binding at all with this high speed floor fan test. Wind Test # 2 (the REAL test) within the hour.
Colin
https://youtu.be/US3YVHT0x8U
Wind Test #2 completed. SUCCESS! ;D ;D Methinks there will be no binding no matter what wind is blowing. ;) The only chance of jamming should be if there is some warping of the flaps due to water but sealing them with Poly should take care of that.
Ok ... so that's done. So I just have to make the "roof" of the flaps (really the wing) and then some attachment points for the outer wings and then "construction" will be done.
Colin
P.S. Notice the weights to hold the plane in place ... just in case that wind blew almost 600 hours (and counting) worth of work onto the floor!
https://youtu.be/bDUjYxM3Y-w
I don't know, the car window would have provided "natural air" rather than the "artificial wind" from your leaf blower.
Congratulations, looks like you have a good working solution.
Jack.
Very cool stuff Colin , nice 8)
It's really impressive Colin.
Is the angle of flap scale?
Quote from: sihinch on June 01, 2015, 08:19:48 AM
Is the angle of flap scale?
Best as I can get em! :)
Colin
Well I'm pleased that the color match between the rattle can paint that I found (thanks Michael) and my covering is a fairly close match. (that's the flap I'm comparing it to) Certainly closer than the match I had on my CL-415 water bomber between its wings and fuse and that was scarcely noticeable "live". (as you can see in the pics of the CL-415 below.)
The original plan for the Solent was to just sheet and paint the fuse and cover the wings. However I've since decided to sheet the entire plane. This was a metal sheeted plane so that "ribbed" look just won't "fly" (no pun intended) this time around. The jury is still out on if I'm gonna paint the wings. Painting allows for better scale details like panel lines, rivets etc etc.
There could be a fairly large penalty in weight though so I'll have to see what the results of my weight testing will be later on today before I finally make that call. Will post the results of my testing where "weights" are concerned for what it's worth in terms of helping other modelers.
Colin
Quote from: Papa on May 29, 2015, 08:38:38 PM
no holding them out the window of the car at 60 mph
Hey Jack, the suggestion that you cautioned me NOT to use to test my flaps might not be so far fetched after all! ;) lol! See from 1 min 32seconds into the attached video.
Colin
P.S. BTW, this is the most "scale" you will ever see in a model IMHO. Guy has been the Jet Masters Champion for a few years straight and you can see why. :o
https://youtu.be/-HK1LrvRx0E
His stuff is amazing but I wonder how much it costs?
Jack.
Quote from: Papa on June 05, 2015, 07:32:03 PM
His stuff is amazing but I wonder how much it costs?
Jack.
I'm guessing since that looks to be a 50 to 70lb plane with two turbines (each costing upwards of 5 to 7k) I'm guessing least 15 to 20K ... :o
Incidentally for quite a while I was seeing two reference photos of my subject with each having a different position of its aileron control horns. (see pics attached) I was confused as to how that could be since it was the same plane (ZK-AMO "Aranui"). In the first pic it shows the horns at the bottom of the wing and in the second it shows the horns at the top. ???
It took me awhile to realize that it was BOTH on top and on bottom ... utilizing the pull/pull system. Well, I decided that was too much hassle ... so I settled on the bottom and making the horns themselves as scale looking as possible. ;D
Colin
Ok guys, stuff been goin' on. :) I'm on my second glassing of the fuse. (did the sides first) Used 2oz glass for the sides (halfway up the fuse) and for the back half of the keel. For the forward half of the keel I used 5oz since that's my main "contact" area.
First, I used OIL polyurethane for the layup coat (1st) to seal the wood and at the same time as the adhesive for the glass. Next I will use WBPU mixed with baby powder for the finish layer, then the sanding/filling/sanding/filling/sanding/filling etc will commence. :( ::)
Anyway this should give me as good a finish as the last glass job I did. (the waterbomber.) So we're getting there ... my hope is to give myself a Father day's gift of a "test flyable" plane so I just have a week! MUST get the paint on this weekend so as to give at least a couple of weeks worth of curing by Kingston.
Still a lot of finicky little things to do ... wiring, latches, making attachments for my cowls (using magnets) etc etc. Even though I hope to have it flyable by Fathers day, I can't see this being completely done (all the scale details that I intend to add) before the TEMAC funfly but in the meantime I hope to fly her as much as possible. ;D
BTW, the most obvious chance of water getting into the plane during regular flying (as opposed to crashes lol!) would be through the flap and aileron control rod exits so I've made those servo compartments self contained (sealed from the rest of the wing) for the inevitable intrusion. I've also added some rubber "seals" (second and third pics) which hug the rods as they move ... and access hatches so I can empty water from those compartments. Hopeful the combination of these measures will prevent any water access problems. (hate water sloshing around in my wings!)
Colin
Getting more plane like every day. Roll on Father's Day.
Jack.
Will be great to see you out at TEMAC. I've forgotten what you look like!!!
!o!
Quote from: sihinch on June 12, 2015, 02:43:34 PM
Will be great to see you out at TEMAC. I've forgotten what you look like!!!
!o!
Yeah, like I mentioned to Rob, I'm almost tempted to bring it tomorrow to work on it in between flights! lol!
Colin
Tomorrow or Sunday? Warbirds day, right?
Ooops! Sunday. ;D
Who is this Colin guy I keep reading about? ;D
Hope you can make it out to the field soon.
regards,
Frank
Hi Colin,
the R/C boat guys have little accordion style rubber "boots" that make water tight seals for pushrods.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=r/c+boat+pushrod+seals&biw=1536&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIgZfK-NCMxgIVSo6SCh0UiwDj (https://www.google.ca/search?q=r/c+boat+pushrod+seals&biw=1536&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIgZfK-NCMxgIVSo6SCh0UiwDj)
Pat
Hey Colin,
It will be great to see you! Are you bringing the Tempest to Warbirds day???
Glenn
Quote from: pmackenzie on June 13, 2015, 08:10:25 AM
Hi Colin,
the R/C boat guys have little accordion style rubber "boots" that make water tight seals for pushrods.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=r/c+boat+pushrod+seals&biw=1536&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIgZfK-NCMxgIVSo6SCh0UiwDj (https://www.google.ca/search?q=r/c+boat+pushrod+seals&biw=1536&bih=775&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIgZfK-NCMxgIVSo6SCh0UiwDj)
How cool is that? ;D Thanks Pat!
Pat
Quote from: electroflyer on June 13, 2015, 08:37:07 AM
Hey Colin,
It will be great to see you! Are you bringing the Tempest to Warbirds day???
Glenn
Hey Glenn, that Typhoon is under a few layers of Solent dust right now so no. ;) But it will be out this season!
Colin
Another trick from the boat guys- put some grains of rice in any "sealed" area that might get water in it.
The rice will soak it up.
You could go high tech and use those "do not eat" silica gel packets that come with a lot of electronics.
Pat
Ok for those who might be obsessed with weight savings, I've got some weights for ya. ;D
Oil based Polyurethane:
1 gram per every 30 square inches.
Sheeting ("regular" as opposed to like contest grade.) "installed". (using wood glue)
.25 grams per square inch of sheeting.
Paint (2 coats) with primer (3 light coats): (based on Rustoleum rattle can paint and Duplicolor high fill primer)
.06 grams per sq inch.
Colin.
P.S. Last WBPU coat with baby powder on and drying. (makes sanding a pleasure because of the smell. lol!) This evening will do another sanding ... then primer. Tomorrow, filling, sanding and final primer? :)
Amazing what a little bit of color makes. ;D Pictures don't show it but there's a crap load of filling and sanding to do. Ugh ...
Colin
Wow! Nice!
Quote from: Michael on June 13, 2015, 11:21:43 PM
Wow! Nice!
Thanks but how do you like her now? ;) Looks like she caught a bad case of mange overnight! lol! Tedious process but we're getting there.
Colin
Quote from: wollins on June 13, 2015, 01:35:34 PM
Last WBPU coat with baby powder on and drying. (makes sanding a pleasure because of the smell. lol!)
Did I use "sanding" and "pleasure" in the same sentence? That smell must have gone to my brain cause NOTHING makes sanding a pleasure. >:( Oh well ... back to it! :)
Colin
I love sanding with a big coarse sanding block! Hate find sanding.
Hey Colin! I'm still following and appreciating your fine work and enthusiasm. My building is on hold now for a while, so I'm enjoying watching you guys move forward.
The retrieval boat is ready when you are!... but we won't need to use it :)
Ok, I've spent the last five days on the filling and sanding cycles and I'm hopefully on my last. (fourth) BTW, in some areas I've used DAP fast and final lightweight filler and I don't know if they've changed the formula or what but it's a bi*@h to sand now. It's like sanding glue! It also does not leave a very smooth finish. I've used it quite a bit in the past and can't recall ever having this problem but I don't think I'll be using it again going forward.
Anyways was hoping for a fathers day test flight but underestimated this stage. It'll get done when it gets done. :)
Colin
That's what I've been saying about the Dap filler. It's O.K. for course, deep filling, but not good for finish filling. I still MUCH prefer the expensive Hobby Magic filler. You're not supposed to need much of it so it goes a long way.
Yeah I just had to put a skim coat over those spots. >:( Plane is gonna weigh a lot more than I thought based on how this stage is going.
Ok this coming week I'm gonna take a break from the Solent in order to prepare for Kingston. I wanna build TWO Morphines in that time. :o The first one will be my racer (to spec) and the other will be my 800 watts per pound (yup, you read that right. lol!) "sport" Morphine.
Obviously this one's wing will be strengthened (CF rod) and will serve as my back up racer (for when the inevitable happens) as I'll be able to interchange their power trains easily.
It'll be good to take a break from the Solent while her paint cures. ;)
Colin
Wanna build me one of those morphine "sport" planes, too? Sounds awesome, and you wont notice a third. ;D
Ok the Morphine's done ... back to the Solent tomorrow. :)
Colin
This was my distraction ... maybe now I can finally finish this plane? ::) This build has been so long that I put together two ARFs (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg31305.html#msg31305 and http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg34077.html#msg34077) AND built this Morphine kit along the way!
Colin
Your Morphine looks great! It'll be nice to have you out racing again on Sunday. I hope you can make it.
Yup, Sunday will be the start of my racing season. :)
Great looking racer! Hope we get a lot of heats in this weekend.o
My Morphine should be ready, too! ;D
Back at it ... center wing finally done with the sanding and filling cycles. Had to do over that crappy DAP lightweight filler that does NOT seem to fully cure no matter how long its left and does NOT sand well no matter what grit you use ... wet or dry. >:(
BTW, obviously all deadlines previously mentioned are out of the window due to the many distractions that I've had but it will get done THIS season, I promise! ;)
Colin
Well after much distraction and a much deserved family vacation, I'm back at it. We're about 80% there now. Just finished setting the correct angle of the tip floats (plans have it almost zero incidence, full scale about 25 degrees positive) so all that is left to do now is "finishing" ... but there's a bunch more filling and sanding (the whole wing) then covering, painting, wiring etc etc.
Oh wait, I lie ... I still have to sheet the rudder and sheet the roofs for the flaps. ;) (and I'm sure a million other things that don't come to mind right now)
Colin
P.S. Did I mention this thing is BIG? ;D
Well, the stuff that's going on behind the scenes is nothing really "photo worthy" hence a general slow down of posts. :) Just a lot of the more finicky things ... however I did finally sheet the vstab and rudder and with the sheeting you can really see the shape of it now. I'm really pleased as to how that came out cause I went to great lengths to get its shape as scale as possible (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg31850.html#msg31850). I just have to round off the tip a bit now (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg31860.html#msg31860) and it'll be almost perfect! ;D
Colin
Keep at it you're nearly there. Looks great.
Jack.
Better. Now I can sleep tonight. ;D
Colin
P.S. BTW, the correction is on the right in the top pic! ;)
Is this a spot the difference competition? There really is no difference is there?!
Yup, the tip needed rounding off a bit. Very subtle to most (since they're not building it) but glaring to me. ;D ;D ;D
That is nicely rounded off and looks spot on.
The rudder looks like it is increased in area, slightly, as is common on most scale models.
But as my Dad always said:
"A man on a galloping horse wouldn't notice it".
Jack.
Well there was a bit of a disaster tonight. I was painting the fuse with my chosen rattle can paint (Rustoleum winter grey -Glossy from Hdepot) and it was upside down and anchored on the table outside ... went inside for a no more than a minute and came back outside and there's the plane on the ground. :o
A wind gust literally picked it up (despite being anchored) and flung it completely off the table. >:( Broke the H stab from the fuse which was only saved from being 100% severed because of the CF wing joiner. Obviously fixable but just one more thing to delay this build. The other thing I'm worried about is I don't know if there was internal damage (wing joiner severed inside) so don't know if I should break the fuse (tail) open completely to find out. >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Colin
Oh no. So sorry Colin. Hope there's nothing too bad in there.
I know ... but hey, everything happens for the best ... chances are I'll make it stronger through the repairs. More frustrated with myself for letting it happen than the damage itself cause it could have been MUCH worse.
Colin
Progress ... I'm loving how the rattle can Rustoleum winter grey (Glossy) from Home depot turned out!
Colin
P.S. Last pic shows H stab repair. (or doesn't show it? ;))
Looking soooo good Colin.
That 'head on' shot shows the enormous depth of the fuselage compared to a land plane. It must be 3 to 4 times higher.
What repair, I don't see no friggin' repair?
Jack.
Quote from: Papa on August 13, 2015, 12:31:01 AM
What repair, I don't see no friggin' repair?
Jack.
Yeah I'm proud of that repair cause it can't be seen! lol! The left H stab had been partially broken off at the fuse from the fall off the table.
Colin
Stunning!
The Solent looks fantastic! It'll be ready to fly soon, right?
Thanks guys!
Quote from: piker on August 13, 2015, 02:09:13 PM
The Solent looks fantastic! It'll be ready to fly soon, right?
Nope, as you know I was hoping for this weekend but had to put her aside (AGAIN!) cause I want to get my Aichi Val done for Sunday. :o Will the rush ever end? ::) This I promise, she WILL be at the Temac funfly in a flyable state. (but I'm aiming to test fly before then obviously)
Colin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOvR2KjzqDU
BTW the Solent's passengers won't be allowed to see outside during the test flight ... for their safety in case of a worse case scenario. You'll notice from the second pic that they're all shuttered up! ;)
Colin
It might be like the NASA zero G plane!!
Amazing build.
Those who know me know how I "love" covering ... so I was not looking forward to doing the center wing (that's why it was left for last) especially with the nacelles. As a matter off fact I can't begin to tell you how many times I debated whether or not to just paint the entire wing! I had never covered rounded nacelles before and have heard that they can be quite challenging.
Anyway I decided to start at the bottom of the wing figuring that any screw-ups will be less noticeable there and I should get better by the time I get to the top. Well, it actually came out much better than I expected so the top should come out just fine. whew!
Colin
Great job! Very nice covering work!!!
Quote from: piker on August 20, 2015, 05:32:13 PM
Great job! Very nice covering work!!!
Thanks! Wing finally done ... flaps finally permanently installed and tested ... here she is in all her glory. ;) Only cowls and spinners left to do. How many days til the TEMAC funfly again? ;)
Colin
P.S. BTW, that's a six foot long table under that wing. :o ;D
Pics one through four show flap bays finally buttoned up! ;) (with flaps neutral) Pics five through eight show flaps deployed within their respective bays. Notice that the throws aren't that great. So much so that it doesn't even seem like it would make a difference (especially looking from the top) but because of the unique movement of the flaps themselves (downwards AND outward extension) they add another 50 square inches of area to the wing.
Typical "Normal" flaps in the planes that are more commonly modeled just come down and don't add to the wing area. Because of the weight of this beast I think I'll need every extra inch of wing area I can get so that's cool! lol!
Colin
Awesome! I can't wait to see it flying at the TEMAC Fun Fly on Sunday!
Wow! Colin that is fantastic...and Huge!
Looking forward to seeing it take to the air.
Glenn
P.S. The Val was always a favourite of mine also. Good luck with both!
Can't wait to see it.
Thanks guys! Cowl attachment rings being attached, cowl tips attached to cowl extensions ... ready for paint. ;) "Easter egg spinners" ready for primer and paint. ;D Working on spinner back plates as we speak! It's gonna be close but if I have to pull an all nighter I will! (nothing strange there right, Rob? :)) )
Colin
Wait! I was joking about seeing it at the fun fly.... Did you have it there? Really?
Quote from: piker on August 31, 2015, 09:42:30 AM
Wait! I was joking about seeing it at the fun fly.... Did you have it there? Really?
I know you were joking cause as you know I need you and your boat for the test flight! lol! However I did intend to take it as a show and tell since so many people have been asking about it and I figured more Temac'ers come out for the funfly than any other time. However I couldn't get it into the car! :o
Colin
Ok guys, so this is what would have displayed at the funfly, had I been able to fit it into the car! >:( It's at what I call the "show and tell" stage ... about a week or two (tops) to test flight stage. Unlike some of the other builders in our club I'm a relatively slow builder so you're looking at over 900 hours to this stage but I'm pretty pleased by how she turned out.
As she sits here she weighs 240 ounces (15 pounds) and we still have to add the batteries, esc's and receiver. So about another 48 ounces and we should come in at around 288 ounces or 18lbs even. :) That's about a pound over my projection but at a cubic wing loading of 11.3ozs per square foot I should be fine. The challenge will be generating enough power to get off the grass. Experience has shown me that I need at least 130 watts a pound to be able to do that. So that's about 2340 watts or 585 watts per motor. Doable I think but we'll see.
The first three pics show step by step putting the parts together.
Colin
P.S. Some may notice that there is an uneven gap between the rudder and fin, a gap between the fuse and the wing saddle and there is a teeny gap between the tip float base plates and the wing. Not to worry, the rudder hinges haven't been glued yet, the gap under the wing is deliberately built in there to accommodate my waterproofing seal and the tip floats are only tack screwed on for the sake of the pictures. ;)
That looks amazing. I love the spinners.
Wow!
That is amazing!
Super work Colin. Those spinners and props look so scale.
The whole model looks flawless, can't wait see it on the water.
Jack.
Wonderful! That's a fine lookin' flying boat! So cool!
The lake was calm and welcoming last night and this morning. In fact, it's been calm a lot recently. Too bad I haven't been able to get out flying on it.
Let me know when you're ready go. I have another site near my place that would be perfect for flying and is quite private... if Frenchman's Bay or my place are not ideal...
Hey Colin
Wow that looks Great...
fantastic job...
man you have the touch to create
Thanks guys ... yes I am particularly pleased with the spinners, considering that they are made from easter eggs! However because they are easter eggs they will need to be fortified. I'll use my old panty hose trick (http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4888.msg31416.html#msg31416) for this. They also could be a tad narrower and longer (see full size pics attached) but they're close enough.
Colin
It's been a while since the last update but I've been busy with life .... Anyways got to working on the electronics/wiring install and since I decided to house everything on the wing this time to minimise connections I had to make a "box" to house the stuff. So I've crammed it all in there and hopefully we won't have any interference issues.
So got to the point where I was gonna try to balance the beast and got two shocks. First my "regular" big plane balancer/stand was not deep enough for the plane to clear at the bottom so I had to modify the stand to accommodate it. Then the BIG shocker ... it needed an EXTRA pound and a half to balance! SO it ended up being around 19.5lbs AUW. (so far) Whew! A far cry from my original target of 16 to 17lbs.
Anyway all that's left to do (before the test flight) is to set up my radio ... do some prop testing (and maybe prop balancing) and we should be good to go.
Colin
That's a BEAST!!! Awesome
You are quickly running out of excuses to fly it ;D
Where did you get those capacitor banks for the ESCs?
Thanks,
Pat
Quote from: pmackenzie on September 19, 2015, 08:18:18 AM
You are quickly running out of excuses to fly it ;D
Where did you get those capacitor banks for the ESCs?
Thanks,
Pat
Missed this one Pat ... sorry. Got them from on online source named Aircraft World out of Japan. They're Castle Creations so can be gotten almost anywhere I imagine.
Colin
Well she was to maiden on Sunday but the lake was too choppy with all that wind etc. Did some ground testing instead. Did not go well ... she just would not get unstuck despite my calculations telling me that we have more than enough power/thrust. You can see by the attached vid that she almost wants to tip over onto her nose.
I have a suspicion ... there were many reports from flyers of this plane of climbing upon acceleration so I had built in about a quarter of an inch of negative AOA to compensate for this. My suspicion is that the default incidence may rectify my issues ... but then again it could simply be that my grass is just too "sticky". :) I'm gonna take the following steps:
1. Test it at TEMAC. If the problem persists there then:
2. Re-test it with Teflon dry lube applied to the hull. If the problem continues to persist then:
3. Adjust the AOA to the default (I made it so that I could re-adjust it) and repeat steps 1 and 2.
If all the above fails then increase the power on tap! lol!
Colin
P.S. Not necessary to watch the entire vid as the first one to four minutes is indicative of what it did throughout the vid.
https://youtu.be/rfjsVjp0B_Y
My Albatross doesn't move much on grass, but slides easily on the 'runway'.
Quote from: Michael on September 21, 2015, 08:47:15 PM
My Albatross doesn't move much on grass, but slides easily on the 'runway'.
Have you been breaking the "rules" again, Michael? ;) Didn't even know that was an option! ??? I seem to recall that when the runway was being laid it was made clear that only wheeled planes were allowed to use it even though Rob and I made pretty good arguments that flying boats should be the exception for obvious reasons. (no chance of prop strikes etc) So good to know that that rule has been relaxed. :)
In any event kinda leery about tearing up my hull but if all else fails that's definitely a great suggestion, so thanks!
Colin
I think that it's fair to say that now we have a bit more experience and learning, that sensible belly landing (i.e. No bungee hooks) is OK for the runway.
I'll get confirmation and consensus from the Board.
My plane is about 1/3 the weight of yours.
I suppose that's important.
Try watering the lawn to make it a bit more "slippery".
If that works then take some with you to TEMAC, or the early in the morning when there is dew on the ground.
Amor-all on the bottom might also help.
I think once it starts moving and there is some air over the control surfaces it will be very different.
Pat MacKenzie
Same grass ... different plane. ;)
http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4354.msg35356.html#new
SUCCESS! Went to Temac today and same result. Solent would not taxi on the grass. Then I added the Teflon dry lube. Voila! She taxied just fine ... what a relief! Now I can focus on getting the test flight done ... on water! ;) It was a good day.
The only sad part was that Jack was never able to see this project come to fruition as he had a great part to play in it. He was the major force behind me getting the flaps on this done ... and it's the main thing that separates THIS Solent from the other RC Solents out there. (as far as I know) May he rest in peace.
Colin
P.S. The action starts at 25 seconds and goes to about two minutes. Footage after that is just me taking the plane back to the pits.
https://youtu.be/nW2RwXQ4-Yw
Well another attempt at the test flight was to be made on the weekend but again the lake was a smidge too choppy and there was also quite a bit of a swirly bumpy wind going on. So instead ... we did some water taxi testing and we (Rob P and I) were actually quite pleased with how that went. There was certainly no lack of power and she got up on step very easily and quickly (on account of that power) to the point where we both agreed that she could probably take off in about 25 feet! (and almost did! ;D)
I have to say it was VERY tempting not to hold back on those occasions when I got her onto step and just let her go all the way. ;D Anyway I resisted ... so we'll have to try again another time when the weather is better. There's certainly more to consider when deciding when to do a test flight off water as opposed to terra firma.
One thing that my water taxi testing did reveal was that my tip floats were still slightly at the wrong angle of attack ("still" since I had adjusted them) which is one of the causes of them dipping under the water on occasion. That is NOT good because the main cause of ripping off a tip float is when that kind of thing happens. Not to mention the fact that you could drag a wingtip or even worse bog down the tip on taxi or takeoff. You can see in the comparison pics that the full sized floats are angled up more as opposed to mine.
However the fact that the floats I have are not scale in shape as well is probably more of a contributing factor in them dipping under IMO. They are much narrower and have a much more sharply pronounced hull than the full sized ones. (Dunno how I missed that. ::) ) So ... I'm gonna be making a completely new set of floats, hopefully in time for my next attempt this coming weekend.
I found the taxi runs interesting but unfortunately both of us forgot to take video of them.
Colin
P.S. Big thanks go out to Rob for taking time away from his reno to help me out with this.
Yep! The plane is pretty awesome and looks like it'll perform very well. But it was wise to not fly in those conditions. We need to aim for early morning next weekend.
Ok floats have been started. Have decided to go completely with pink foam (as opposed to the first set which is built up balsa/ply) to keep it simpler and I suspect lighter.
First pic is the base ...
Second shows the width increase.
Third shows the piles that will be carved/shaped into two tip floats that will look just like the full size AND be more functional than the version as per the plans. ;)
Colin
That looks like a great start! :-)
Almost there. Just have to make them a bit narrower on the tops. Then it's on to decide how I'm gonna mount them on the struts.
Ooops! Forgot these pics. Floats complete except for glassing. (will paint after test flight ;)) Last two pics show that I adjusted the AOA to be more positive as our water taxi tests showed that the AOA of the old floats was too negative (nose down) and thus were submarining a little.
Nothing to do but FLY the darn thing now! ::) ;D
Colin
P.S. They're still not as "scale" in terms of shape as the full size (mine are proportionally thicker etc) but I'm going for maximum buoyancy here! lol!
She looks great.
What a project.
Nice Job.
Thx BJ! Now if I can only get her to fly, we can move on to phase 2! (the best part. ;) ;D)
Colin
UPDATE:
So Monday will be exactly one year since I started this project and we haven't had our test flight yet ... despite three attempts so far. ::) At this point with the weather deteriorating in terms of temperature and winds I'm starting to think that it may well not happen this year. There are only so many more weekends to go before flying season ends. :(
That would be a shame because I have soooo much more to do. (the fun stuff) Not only that but some of the stuff ... like wing to fuse fairings, elevator to fuse fairings etc depend on final settings like wing incidence etc so that there is a smooth seamless merge. That's the kind of stuff that would be adjusted after the first flight. Besides I would feel much more comfortable if I knew that the model actually flies ... BEFORE I do all that work.
Anyways ... keeping fingers crossed that we'll still get that opportunity this season.
Colin
The water isn't frozen yet! I'm still hoping for one more float fly before the big freeze!
AGAIN, this weekend was a bust ... rough waves, high winds and cold as heck! Quickly running out of time for a test flight this year ... but still keeping fingers crossed cause that would mess up my plans! (BTW, yesterday was the anniversary of starting this project :o)
Incidentally, since I'm just waiting to do my test flight, I decided to carry on with my plan to make a "carry on" for my center wing. ;) lol! Saves sooo much space now in the car!
Colin
AH yes something about the mother of invention ;D
Good idea
Ok so I'm still waiting for this test flight (this morning again ... gusty winds/choppy waves) and of course in the meantime I saw something that I could tweak to make it more "scale". (as has been the trend though out this whole project!)
Remember when I did the tip floats over cause they were the wrong AOA and were too narrow? (see post on 28th September) Well, I noticed that the "new" floats were the wrong shape in terms of profile. ;) So I decided to make a THIRD version of the tip floats! (hey while I'm waiting I might as well strive for perfection, right?! lol!) The full size was more "cigar" shaped (for lack of a better description) with a blunter nose.
So ... of course being analretentive I had to at least do my best to replicate that ... else what's point of all this really? ;D So I removed a piece of the foam in the nose, replaced it with another piece that I could shape to the profile I wanted and then I chopped about 10% of the height of the profile from the bottom.
I like it much better now. ;)
Colin
Comparisons.
Pic #1: Full size close up
Pic #2: Full size profile
Pic #3: My first set of tip floats
Pic #4: My second set with the right AOA
Pic #5: My third and final version with the right AOA and right scale shape and profile
Pic #6: FRONT ON - My third and final version with the right AOA and right scale shape and profile
Pic #7: First version as per the plans vs my final version. (which seems smaller because it's in the background)
Ok ... back to waiting on the weather. Hmmm ... maybe there's something else I can tweak? Ahh yes! The inside struts (longer ones) have a taper at the top and bottom connection points. I'll do that then I'll paint. ;)
Colin
P.S. BTW, three times to get it right seems to be the prevailing trend of this build. >:( ;D Having said that I don't think I'll ever make a balsa tip float again. This was infinitely easier. (planking is a bi*#h!)
Edit: Pic of tapered inside struts on tip floats added.
The beauty of foam, I like the last version, they capture the full size floats very nicely.
Great job!
Glenn
Ok so I'm pulling the plug on the test flight attempt this year as this weekend doesn't look any better than the last few ... looks worse actually. I can't imagine that it will get any better as we slide closer and closer to winter and I've lots to do in terms of actually finishing the plane.
So ... we're gonna move into what is the favourite part of any build for me ... detailing and making it "look" as good as I can. As the plane stands right now it's really very basic compared to how it will look in the finished state. I think you guys will be blown away by how different it will look. :)
We expect great things ;D
Yes. it looks like float flying season is over. Let's get our float planes ready for a great season of flying next Spring!
Great things shall be produced I promise! :) The following 38 items are what's planned:
FUSELAGE:
1 - Rub down with ultra fine steel wool (or brillo pad depending) to create a satin to flat finish so that my panel lines will "bite".
2 - Panel lines will be applied
3 - Very subtle differential "distressing" will be applied to random panels.
4 - 23 additional lower fuse windows fabricated/installed. (into fuse cutouts like the original 12 I already have)
5 - Left side TAIL window fabricated/installed. (again into fuse cutout)
6 - Rubber window framing (indented inserts/seals) installed in all 36 windows.
7 - Bow air intake will be added.
8 - Bow hatch will be created
9 - Bow U bolt anchor will be fabricated and installed
10 - Wing to fuselage fairings
11 - Elevator to fuselage fairings
12 - Navigation dome
13 - Indented door frames
14 - Indented right side tail hatch
15 - Miscellaneous scale "bits". (like cabin radio antenna post, side air intake stalks etc etc)
16 - Rusted water line :)
17 - Scale decals
18 - Rivets (I expect these will run into the thousands)
19 - A BIG SURPRISE ONLY REVEALED IN PERSON! (possibly at a winter workshop/pilot's meeting) ;)
TAIL FEATHERS:
20 - Rub down with ultra fine steel wool (or brillo pad depending) to create a satin to flat finish.
21 - Panel lines will be applied
22 - Differential "distressing" will be applied to random panels.
23 - Non functional elevator trim tabs
24 - Non functional rudder trim tabs
25 - Scale Decals
26 - Rivets
WINGS:
27 - Rubbed down with ultra fine steel wool (or brillo pad depending) to create a satin to flat finish.
28 - Panel lines will be applied
29 - Differential "distressing" will be applied to random panels.
30 - Non functional cowl flaps
31 - Nacelle exhausts
32 - Top and bottom nacelle air intakes
33 - Tip float rigging
34 - Scale spinners (I've decided to redo these from sturdier material as opposed to the ones I had depicted in the pics so far)
35 - Counter rotating scale 4 blade props
36 - Scale decals
37 - Rivets
OVERALL:
38 - Clear coat entire plane clear to lock in panel lines.
Colin
How will you be applying panel lines?
I worship at Mr. Scale's altar. But seriously, Colin -- will you really want to risk committing aviation after doing all this detail work?
Quote from: gordonbw on November 20, 2015, 02:51:44 PM
I worship at Mr. Scale's altar. But seriously, Colin -- will you really want to risk committing aviation after doing all this detail work?
Thanks Gordon. Now folks will understand why I desperately wanted to get the test flight out of the way BEFORE I did all the finish details to my satisfaction. I guess I have to trust in my building/flying skills when that big day comes in the spring after all the effort the above steps will require. Incidentally it'll probably take all Winter for me to complete it but I'm confident that it'll all (the build and the subsequent flights) work out fine. :)
If work permits, the plan is to attend the Pilot's meetings a couple of times over the Winter to show the different stages of finish ... at the show and tell.
Colin.
Quote from: piker on November 20, 2015, 12:19:50 PM
How will you be applying panel lines?
Dunno yet ... but I'm thinking of a combination of subtle indentation (scribing) and maybe 2B pencil. There's certainly enough top paint on the painted surfaces to not worry about scribing too deeply. ;) Hey I might even forgo the pencil by scribing down deep enough for primer to show though! lol! The bottom line is however I do it it'll HAVE to be very subtle.
Colin
BTW, this is what the final version of the Tip float looks like painted etc. Note the tapered inner struts. ;)
Colin
Guys, I've been trying to find extra long prop adapters and not having much luck. The longest I've found is the Hyperion collet ones but at 23mm they are just shy of what I need. Are there machine shops that would do this kind of thing?
Colin
What are you looking for?
Is it just more thread for your staggered props?
Can you show a sketch, or mockup of what you need?
Pat
Yeah Pat you hit the nail on the head, I need more thread for my staggered props. The one I have depicted in the pics (pic #2 and #3) at 26.5mm long is just a little short for my hub/s. The shaft is 5mm diameter and what I need is about 30mm long at an absolute MINIMUM ... ideally about 35mm.
Either a "collet" type adapter (pic #1) or a "back mount" type adapter (pic #2 and #3) would work but I prefer the latter type cause I've found on the odd occasion that the collet type can be out of true since it cinches down on the motor shaft itself. (which can be slightly out of true itself)
On the other hand the backmount type bolts directly onto the motor itself therefore this type tends to run true more consistently.
Colin
P.S. BTW, the longest collet type adapter I could find for a 5mm shaft is the Hyperion one (pic 1) which is their "extra long" version at 23mm long.
One way around this would be to use a different kind nut on the front, a sleeve nut.
Common when using prop extensions on control line stunt models. Also a lot easier to make than a prop adapter.
I know you can get them for 1/4-28:
http://brodak.com/prop-shaft-extension-1-4-28-to-1-4-28-thread-x-3-4-long.html
You would not use the actual extension, just the sleeve nut and front washer.
You do have to open up the hole in the prop hub to fit the OD of the sleeve nut.
The one in the images is one I made out of aluminum to replace some original heavy steel parts
Pat MacKenzie
Thanks Pat ... looks interesting. BTW, I need a favour (to anyone reading this) ... I need the measurement of the thickness of the hub of an APC 12x6 Thin Electric Propeller.
Thanks!
Colin
Colin,
I am holding a 12x6 Electric APC and the micrometer shows the thickness as..... 9.3 mm or .372 inches. You do the conversion. My brain is fried* after a long day. ;D
Hope it helps.
Frank
* yes Andy.... both brain cells! :)
Hi Colin,
I do not know how thick the hub of your prop is, but I have used Forstner bits in the past to mill out material to allow the original prop hub to work. It cuts flat which allows the washer to sit flush against the prop hub. It is recommended that a drill press be used.
Glenn
thanks guys
Well, I've finally found a solution to my problem. Sometimes "function" has to trump "scale". :( :) Ok ... so lets start from the beginning. ;)
My intention from the start with this plane was to set it up with 4 bladed counter rotating props. As we all know the P Factor Torque effect can make our models veer off course something fierce in takeoff, (and to a lesser extent taxiing) which can result at best in a not so smooth take off and at worse a botched takeoff/crash. In my experience the effect is even more pronounced with a multi. Using counter rotation on one side eliminates that completely. (see the difference in my CL-415 here http://temac.ca/smf/index.php?topic=4354.msg35355#msg35355)
The problem is that counter rotating props are very rare in a 4 blade configuration and even rarer still when looking for a particular size. At the size I was looking for (the 10 to 12 inch diameter range) they are virtually non existent. Believe me I've searched! >:(
Not one to give up easily when faced with a challenge, I decided to make my own. ;) Since counter rotating props are much more common in the regular 2 blade configuration I was able to source four 10x6 MAS two blade counter rotating gas props. The plan was to splice (overlap) those 2, two bladed props and make them into one four bladed one. Years ago I had come across a few examples of modellers who had done just that so after much research I figured out how to do it.
The only issues I saw (other than maybe a possible compromise in strength) was that one prop would not be on the same plane as the other. (it'll be slightly ahead of the other. .. not flush) This is because I did a 25% cutout opposed to if I had removed 50% of the hub. (which I've seen others do) The reason I did this as opposed to a 50% cutout was to minimise the potential compromising of the structural integrity of the now four bladed prop. This is also the reason I chose GAS props as opposed to electric props since the gas ones tend to have thicker/stronger hubs.
1st two pics show one of my props "notched" out by 25% and the 3rd pic shows how they fit together when they're both notched out by 25%. You can see how one blade protrudes in front of the other compared to a stock APC 4 blader in the 4th pic. Don't think that protrusion will be a negative in terms of aerodynamics and cosmetically you won't see it cause it'll be within the spinner. ;D
I then balanced each prop separately and then glued them together using JB weld. (pic #3) Did a few tests on the now "new" balanced DIY four bladed prop and it ran up perfectly every time with no sign of any compromise in structural integrity. The plan was to do dozens and dozens of additional full throttle testing/run ups over the winter to make 100% sure that there would be no compromise in structural integrity,( i.e prop exploding/blowing apart!) before committing it to the model.
Anyways ... after all of this ... because of my paranoia of that slight chance of something going wrong even after testing in terms of the props coming apart (and the fact that there would be four of them thereby quadrupling the chances of that happening) I decided against using them. ::)
I then decided instead I would take the much safer route and just "stack" two x 2 bladers one on top the other to make my four blader. Not nearly as pretty, but 100% safe since there would be no cutting into the hubs thereby potentially creating a compromise in prop strength. This decision then created the problem of sourcing a long enough prop adapter that would be able to accommodate the thickness of two prop hubs. ::) As you've seen in my earlier post my stock prop adapter's length was 26.5mm but I would need at least 5mm of that for my nut to be able to thread onto something in order to secure the props onto the shaft.
The problem was that the props I had (the gas MAS counter rotating props) had hubs that added together were pretty much the entire length of the prop adapter. Hence my search for the longer prop adapter. Well, after going through all of that frustration, I decided to just check to see if there were any counter rotating APC electric props in the regular 2 blade configuration in the size I needed. (10 to 12" diameter) Lo and behold I found some! ;D Not only that but two of their hubs together measured just under 19.5mm (see pic #5) which incidentally is just over 1 mm thicker than my original DIY spliced MAS four blader. (pic #6)
So! Long story short ... problem solved cause my stock prop adapters will have enough length to accommodate these props, no problem. A special thanks to Pat for paying some attention to (and giving input/advice on) this challenge not only in this thread but the other threads in which I had posted it as well.
Colin
Well, I have to admit ... I was pretty burnt out over this build ... anyone who's been following it knows that it was pretty intense there for awhile. (900 hours or so. ;)) So ... since I got it to the stage of being able to be test flown ... I didn't feel that pressure to get it completely "done". So ... I took the last couple of months off. :)
Having said that I'm slowly getting around mentally to resuming this build ... this week I intend to start on that loooooong list of "to do's" that still has to be done for me to say that this is "complete". So ... in that vein, where can I find some .040" PETG sheets (clear preferred) locally?
Colin
Hi Colin:
Have you tried Plastic World? http://plasticworld.ca/store/
Here is their listing for PETG sheet - http://plasticworld.ca/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_67
Plastic World
4478 Chesswood Drive - Units 15&16
Downsview, Ontario M3J 2B9
Tel: 416-630-6745
Fax: 416-630-9272
Looking forward to portrait day!
Andy
Quote from: Frank v B on November 24, 2015, 09:22:43 PM
Colin,
I am holding a 12x6 Electric APC and the micrometer shows the thickness as..... 9.3 mm or .372 inches. You do the conversion. My brain is fried* after a long day. ;D
Hope it helps.
Frank
* yes Andy.... both brain cells! :)
Gee! How did I ever miss this soulful plea for help?!! Frank, just hold the leads of your lipo charger and set it for 2S, 1 amp. You'll be fully charged in 6 minutes. (You can skip the balancing; it will just confuse the left and right temporal lobes!) ;D
Andy
Quote from: Andy Hoffer on February 22, 2016, 01:45:01 AM
Hi Colin:
Have you tried Plastic World? http://plasticworld.ca/store/
Here is their listing for PETG sheet - http://plasticworld.ca/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_67
Plastic World
4478 Chesswood Drive - Units 15&16
Downsview, Ontario M3J 2B9
Tel: 416-630-6745
Fax: 416-630-9272
Looking forward to portrait day!
Andy
Hmmm ... had checked their site and couldn't find it. Thanks Andy!
Colin
You deserved a break, Colin. :)
I'm looking forward to seeing the final version of you Solent, and especially to seeing it in the air!
Quote from: Andy Hoffer on February 22, 2016, 01:45:01 AM
Hi Colin:
Have you tried Plastic World? http://plasticworld.ca/store/
Here is their listing for PETG sheet - http://plasticworld.ca/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_67
Plastic World
4478 Chesswood Drive - Units 15&16
Downsview, Ontario M3J 2B9
Tel: 416-630-6745
Fax: 416-630-9272
Looking forward to portrait day!
Andy
Ok their smallest size is their 4 foot x 8 foot sheets ... that should be enough for a hundred canopies? ;) I'm gonna get one sheet. ($48+tax) If anyone wants to share one let me know since I doubt I'll need to pull THAT many parts!
Colin
So the saga of the spinners continue. If you've been following the thread you know that I've gone through two attempts to make some scale spinners. ::) The last version being made out of easter egg "shells" and were the perfect size and shape.
However I had since decided that they were a bit too flimsy and since the last thing I want is a spinner (or two ... or three!) disintegrating in flight I had sourced it out to a guy who makes plastic aftermarket parts for the RC industry. Anyway that deal fell through so I'm gonna pull the spinners myself. (hence my order of the PETG sheets)
I'm gonna use the very same easter egg shell spinner that I used to make the last spinner version. I'm gonna use it as my "buck" to pull the new spinners off of. What I have to do though to make that usable as a buck is I have to fill it with some kind of material that will make it "solid", thus making it resistant to being deformed/crushed when I'm pulling my spinner off of it.
Any ideas as to what material I can use to fill it with? (I'm drawing a blank ... all I can think of is drywall mud! lol)
Colin.
PS. Last spinner version (on the right) was made from the easter "eggshell". (on the left.) :)
Is it Parkflyer plastics who are doing to work for you?
How about just using epoxy?
Quote from: sihinch on February 24, 2016, 01:22:23 PM
Is it Parkflyer plastics who are doing to work for you?
Yeah Keith's a good guy ... he's just been too busy and I need this done asap.
Quote from: wollins on December 08, 2015, 08:13:00 PM
Well, I've finally found a solution to my problem. Sometimes "function" has to trump "scale". :( :) Ok ... so lets start from the beginning. ;)
My intention from the start with this plane was to set it up with 4 bladed counter rotating props. As we all know the P Factor Torque effect can make our models veer off course something fierce in takeoff, (and to a lesser extent taxiing) which can result at best in a not so smooth take off and at worse a botched takeoff/crash. In my experience the effect is even more pronounced with a multi. Using counter rotation on one side eliminates that completely. (see the difference in my CL-415 here http://temac.ca/smf/index.php?topic=4354.msg35355#msg35355)
The problem is that counter rotating props are very rare in a 4 blade configuration and even rarer still when looking for a particular size. At the size I was looking for (the 10 to 12 inch diameter range) they are virtually non existent. Believe me I've searched! >:(
Not one to give up easily when faced with a challenge, I decided to make my own. ;) Since counter rotating props are much more common in the regular 2 blade configuration I was able to source four 10x6 MAS two blade counter rotating gas props. The plan was to splice (overlap) those 2, two bladed props and make them into one four bladed one. Years ago I had come across a few examples of modellers who had done just that so after much research I figured out how to do it.
The only issues I saw (other than maybe a possible compromise in strength) was that one prop would not be on the same plane as the other. (it'll be slightly ahead of the other. .. not flush) This is because I did a 25% cutout opposed to if I had removed 50% of the hub. (which I've seen others do) The reason I did this as opposed to a 50% cutout was to minimise the potential compromising of the structural integrity of the now four bladed prop. This is also the reason I chose GAS props as opposed to electric props since the gas ones tend to have thicker/stronger hubs.
Anyways ... on second thoughts ... because of my paranoia of that slight chance of something going wrong even after testing in terms of the props coming apart (and the fact that there would be four of them thereby quadrupling the chances of that happening) I decided against using them. ::)
So I then decided instead I would take the much safer route and just "stack" two x 2 bladers one on top the other to make my four blader. Not nearly as pretty, but 100% safe since there would be no cutting into the hubs thereby potentially creating a compromise in prop strength.
This decision then created the problem of sourcing a long enough prop adapter that would be able to accommodate the thickness of two prop hubs. ::) As you've seen in my earlier post my stock prop adapter's length was 26.5mm but I would need at least 5mm of that for my nut to be able to thread onto something in order to secure the props onto the shaft.
Hence my search for the longer prop adapter. Well, after going through all of that frustration, I decided to just check to see if there were any counter rotating APC electric props in the regular 2 blade configuration in the size I needed. (10 to 12" diameter) Lo and behold I found some! ;D Not only that but two of their hubs together measured just under 19.5mm which incidentally is just over 1 mm thicker than my original DIY spliced MAS four blader.
So! Long story short ... problem solved cause my stock prop adapters will have enough length to accommodate these props, no problem. A special thanks to Pat for paying some attention to (and giving input/advice on) this challenge not only in this thread but the other threads in which I had posted it as well.
Colin
Ok, so I just realized that Kingston is less than a month away and since this plane MUST have its test flight before then I figured I'd better get my a$$ in gear and finish this counter rotation mod so I can do the test flight. ::)
As you've probably read before (above) I had decided to just "stack" two x 2 bladers one on top the other to make my custom four bladers. The problem then became sourcing a long enough prop adapter that would be able to accommodate the thickness of two prop hubs. I was able to resolve that hurdle by finding some APC props that when stacked together were slim enough to fit. But then they were the wrong size for the KV of the motors I was using. >:( :(
I've since solved that by swapping out the motors for motors which were the right KV
and actually had long enough adaptors! Long story short. I now have four different motors (more power I might add! lol!) and four new custom 4-blader props.
You'll see in the first two pics that these are two pairs of "regular" APC 11X5.5's cut down to 9.5X5.5 ... and stacked. Obviously I then had to do two pairs of COUNTER ROTATING APC 11X5.5's again cut down to 9.5X5.5 ... and stacked. See last two pics of everything installed. (last pic shows how weirdly thick the hubs are but that will be covered by the spinners ;))
She's now ready for a backyard test run to see how straight she tracks as opposed to the veering to the left with the "regular" props. ;) I know ... I know ... some would say just counter the veer with opposing rudder. And to you I say ... I'll do anything I can to make life easier. :P Besides, that's easier said that done without a tailwheel! ;) (yes I have differential thrust but I only want to use that to taxi into position on water)
Colin
P.S. Holee molee, I just saw that this thread has over twenty thousand views! Didn't realize there was that much interest in this build. :)
P.P.S Th saga of these props aren't done yet btw, once the test flight is successful I'll fill you in on the final configuration! ;)
Happy Father's Day to ME! Lol! I just gave myself the best father's present ever ... A SUCCESFUL TEST FLIGHT OF THE SOLENT! Pardon me for shouting but I'm excited! :) After 900+ hours of construction ... plus several attempts last year to do the test flight ... plus countless challenges and "do overs" in the build ... she finally flew.
Left my house at 6.30am to meet up with Rob for 8am near his place on Lake Scugog at the best float flying site I've ever flown at. Lots of visibility and the wind was low and the water calm. All that was left was to get the beast in the air. I took along my "warm up" water plane ... my foamie CL-415 and flew that for a couple of flights before it was time to just bite the bullet and do it. ;)
Had an uneventful minute or so taxing around and then pointed her into the wind and let the 3200 watts haul the 19.5 lb beast into the air! As we were about 20 feet up there was a squealing of a motor (timing?) which as you can imagine increased the "pucker factor" but I throttled back down and decided to continue. Flight was uneventful ... needed a fair bit of up elevator trim but that was because I had adjusted the wing incidence to counteract Ivan designs' tendencies to balloon on acceleration. Apparently I compensated a wee bit too much. ;) Anyways, a little aileron trim and she was on rails.:)
Flew around for about seven minutes and then decided to focus on getting her down in one piece. (I've not had a whole lot of experience flying off water and landing/taking off is quite different from off land) Anyways long story short ... I made the best landing that I've EVER made on water. woot woot!
NOW I can doll her up and do all the scale stuff! :) (FINALLY those passengers will be able to see outside ... lol!)
Colin.
BTW, I thought my hat cam was recording the whole thing but turns out that it wasn't even on! :( However Rob was also taking some pics and I think he also caught some of it on vid. (at least the landing .. i think)
That's very exciting and great news!
Congratulations!
Congratulations Colin on a fantastic plane and flight.
I can't wait to see it at future float flys and watch its further evolution as you scale in more details.
That's fabulous news Colin, congratulations! What a journey. I hope you are very proud and please with yourself.
I can't wait to see it.
Thanks guys. Special thanks to Robert for taking time out from his house reno to help me with the test flight. (he brought along his "recovery boat" just in case)
Colin
Yes!!! It was a very successful test flight! Congratulations, Colin!!
So, I had our new SLR, which I've never used to take video. It worked reasonable well, but it uses the screen for video, which was VERY hard to see because of the glare from the sun. I could barely see the plane most of the time. The other problem was the auto focus, which kept losing the plane. I have more footage, but the important parts are the take-off and landing, which I got pretty good.
Here's the take-off!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CyLaj3UYqc
Some glamour shots:
And the landing!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g40Gz6QR8mU
Colin, congratulations, what a magnificent aircraft. Good on you for all those hours and hours of work, but I think you would agree, it was all worth it. Good job!
Amazing!
Great job build and fly!
Excellent video! Fantastic maiden flight! Congratulations!!
Hey Colin! That take-off was a thing of beauty, until you hauled on the up elevator ;D
But I understand... you needed to get it into the air to level the trims. Worry about the smooth, gradual climb out on the second flight :D
Thanks everyone!
Bravo Colin! She is magnificent! We could actually hear your heart pounding on the video clips!!! Now I understand why you have all that exercise equipment in your shop! ;D
Congrats!
Andy
Hey Colin,
I just watched the videos, a great big congratulations is required!!
One question, are you having timing issues with the motor(s) or was that scary dip as a result of a mixed motor/rudder?
Glenn
Timing.
Well I should have been well underway with the detailing etc but I keep getting distracted! (Just finished assembling my latest acquisition!);)
Colin
Looks fab Colin. But will it float?
With 760 sq inches at only 5.5 lbs it'll float alright ... in the air! ;D
Colin
Holy smokes, I just realized that it's been a little more than three years since I've done anything in the hobby! So for the last three years I've been renovating a new house that we purchased and its finally come to a point where I think I NEED to get back to the hobby. Just finished the entire lower level of the house and since that's the last of the really big projects maybe .... just maybe ... I can get back to the Solent which has been patiently waiting in storage all this time.
As anyone who had followed this thread may recall ... I'd just done a successful maiden flight and the next stage was finally to bling this bird out! (the fun part) So ... even though I don't have a workshop now (and won't for a little while) I think I will do that over this winter.
Colin
P.S. Pics are the before and after of the rec room portion of the basement that was originally down to the studs.
Great job looks great
Looks amazing. Can't wait to see your workshop.
Hope we see you soon Colin. And the Solent.
Great job! You have to be proud of that accomplishment.
Don't let the lack of a 'workshop' hold you back. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Who is this Colin "Wollins" guy?
Great to hear from you. I dare you to drop by at our funfly tomorrow (Sunday).
If you are there I will pay for your hot dog lunch!
Frank
Thanks guys! So there she is ... patiently waiting for some TLC. Second pic is probably where my "workshop" is going to be for the next little while. ::) But that's ok ... I've seen huge models come out of spaces smaller than this. lol
Colin.
P.S. I actually was planning to stop by tomorrow for a couple of hours ... hot dogs or no hot dogs!
Colin,
We will roll out the red carpet for you. 8)
There will be dogs for you!
Frank
From November 20th 2015 ;D
The following 38 items are left to be done:
FUSELAGE:
1 - Rub down with ultra fine steel wool (or brillo pad depending) to create a satin to flat finish so that my panel lines will "bite".
2 - Panel lines will be applied
3 - Very subtle differential "distressing" will be applied to random panels.
4 - 23 additional lower fuse windows fabricated/installed. (into fuse cutouts like the original 12 I already have)
5 - Left side TAIL window fabricated/installed. (again into fuse cutout)
6 - Rubber window framing (indented inserts/seals) installed in all 36 windows.
7 - Bow air intake will be added.
8 - Bow hatch will be created
9 - Bow U bolt anchor will be fabricated and installed
10 - Wing to fuselage fairings
11 - Elevator to fuselage fairings
12 - Navigation dome
13 - Indented door frames
14 - Indented right side tail hatch
15 - Miscellaneous scale "bits". (like cabin radio antenna post, side air intake stalks etc etc)
16 - Rusted water line :)
17 - Scale decals
18 - Rivets (I expect these will run into the thousands)
19 - A BIG SURPRISE ONLY REVEALED IN PERSON! (possibly at a winter workshop/pilot's meeting) ;)
TAIL FEATHERS:
20 - Rub down with ultra fine steel wool (or brillo pad depending) to create a satin to flat finish.
21 - Panel lines will be applied
22 - Differential "distressing" will be applied to random panels.
23 - Non functional elevator trim tabs
24 - Non functional rudder trim tabs
25 - Scale Decals
26 - Rivets
WINGS:
27 - Rubbed down with ultra fine steel wool (or brillo pad depending) to create a satin to flat finish.
28 - Panel lines will be applied
29 - Differential "distressing" will be applied to random panels.
30 - Non functional cowl flaps
31 - Nacelle exhausts
32 - Top and bottom nacelle air intakes
33 - Tip float rigging
34 - Scale spinners (I've decided to redo these from sturdier material as opposed to the ones I had depicted in the pics so far)
35 - Counter rotating scale 4 blade props
36 - Scale decals
37 - Rivets
OVERALL:
38 - Clear coat entire plane clear to lock in panel lines.
CRAP! I'll need TWO more winters to finally "finish" this plane!
Colin
Colin,
Only one way to handle this.... one item at a time! 8)
Frank