A few weeks ago, I found out that my Grandad was stationed overseas in the 1960s with the RAF, and worked on Hawker Hunters. So, I bought one!
Today, I just collected the FlyFly 90mm EDF Hawker Hunter from the post office. This isn't mine, but you get the idea.....
FlyFly Hawker Hunter 125MPH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUTF7Sx5E4Q#ws)
I'm going to use the HobbyKing 90mm DPS 1900kV fan & motor, running on 6S 5000mAh lipo. Stay tuned for my buiild progress......
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17223__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_EDF_unit_with_1900kv_Motor_1750watt.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17223__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_EDF_unit_with_1900kv_Motor_1750watt.html)
Simon
Simon,
I await your build thread with real interest!
I am still struggling to find the right motor/ESC/fan/battery combination for my Fly Fly F-86 which I bought over a year ago and still haven't really started. So far I've blown up one DLuxe 100A ESC, one Changesun 90mm fan (I was able to re-assemble it) and discarded one cheap HK motor which is rated for a maximum 60A. (Don't think it's gonna survive on 6S!)
Like you I'm gonna try 6S as the battery compartment on the F-86 has limited space and I don't think 8S will fit. I have two 3S 4500 Nanos slotted for this model.
Just took delivery of HK's 90mm alloy EDF fan/motor unit for 6S, so as soon as I finish my current EDF project (27mm) I'll get back to the Sabre.
Are you planning retracts or a bungee or Ronnie's arm to launch? I've bought some of HK's inexpensive electric retracts but haven't figgered out how to make the nose gear steer (E-flite maybe?) yet.
Hope your build is a great one!
Hi Bill,
Good luck with the F-86. We should both try to have the FlyFly models finished by next jets day, to fly alongside Michaels FlyFly Hawk!
I have found a build thread on RC Groups for the Hunter, and some people are saying the E-Flite 15-25 retracts are a good fit. I think I will start with the retract route, but I want to do a bit more reading and some research in to suitable units. I may just go HK units, because at $8 each, even if they don't work for too long, you can drop another unit in and still have plenty of $ from the price of the E-Flite ones! Shame, but true.
S
Good luck on the projects fellas. I think the key with foam jets in the 90mm class is to keep them as light as possible, so running a 6S power system is a good idea. The only problem is getting a comfortable level of power.
Simon, you may want to go with a different fan unit, I think with that one you will have marginal performance at best, (I have a feeling the 3.0kg thrust rating is a bit inflated) and taking off from the grass may be difficult without a strong headwind. In the video, they used an 8S setup with about 2600watts. It flew nicely, probably 90mph or so.
PS I have this fan on the way, it should be here next week:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__27560__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_12_Blade_EDF_unit_with_1000kv_Motor_4000watt_10s_.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__27560__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_12_Blade_EDF_unit_with_1000kv_Motor_4000watt_10s_.html)
Thinking of this as a possible airframe for it :)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15524__F_18_EDF_90mm_Jet_Fiberglass_920mm_ARF_.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__15524__F_18_EDF_90mm_Jet_Fiberglass_920mm_ARF_.html)
I got this one: ;D http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=22960 (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=22960)
Colin
Good choice, I hear they fly well. What power system you putting in?
Not sure yet ... loving the DPS HK units cause they look to be of good quality and priced right but they sure are heavy! :( My understanding (based on following the L-59 thread) is that 549 grams is too heavy a fan unit (fan and motor) for proper CG for this bird so anything that I get will have to be below that.
I do love the aluminium fans because of the cooling capabilities and rigidity but the sacrifice is weight. In any event will definitley be a high count blade fan! ;D Like the looks of the new JetFan units (http://www.extremerc.com.au/estore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1073)but they are pricey! Even though they're only 9 blade fans man do they sound like the real thing! Choices, choices. >:( ;D
The good thing though is that at the rate these new fan units are coming out from different vendors/manufacturers we should have an even broader range to choose from by next season.
Colin
Who needs aluminum when you can have mercury! ;)
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24756__Mercury_Alloy_12_Blade_90mm_1600kv_EDF_Unit_8s_.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24756__Mercury_Alloy_12_Blade_90mm_1600kv_EDF_Unit_8s_.html)
Note the weight.
NOW we're talkin'! ;D
Colin
Quote from: flying saucer on November 15, 2012, 11:15:23 PM
Who needs aluminum when you can have mercury! ;)
Note the weight.
The weight of the mercury fan is actually heavier than the 90mm DPS unit.....
Actually the whole complete unit (fan, motor etc) is not. ;) Mercury unit (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__24756__Mercury_Alloy_12_Blade_90mm_1600kv_EDF_Unit_8s_.html)is 435grms and the DPS one (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__27560__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_12_Blade_EDF_unit_with_1000kv_Motor_4000watt_10s_.html)is 657. My goal was to find something in this power range (3000w or so) for less than 550grms (for the L-59) so the Mercury one sure looks like a winner at this point. DPS seems a bit more powerfull at a much netter price, pity its so much heavier. In any event, because these are coming out so fast that I can afford to wait until closer to spring to make my final decision! ;D
BTW Simon, my apologies if I'm detracting from your thread with all of this ...
Colin
The DPS 90mm fan that I have is the 6S version, and is only 424g
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=17223 (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=17223)
Not in your 3000 watt range, though.
S
Quote from: sihinch on November 16, 2012, 07:51:26 AM
Quote from: flying saucer on November 15, 2012, 11:15:23 PM
Who needs aluminum when you can have mercury! ;)
Note the weight.
The weight of the mercury fan is actually heavier than the 90mm DPS unit.....
We are comparing 12 blade to 12 blade Simon. The 5 blade units are typically lighter because they have different motor requirements.
For example this 6S 90mm DPS unit:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__28499__12_Blade_Alloy_DPS_90mm_EDF_unit_6s_1620kv_2250watt.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__28499__12_Blade_Alloy_DPS_90mm_EDF_unit_6s_1620kv_2250watt.html)
Can't help but chime in with my 2 cents worth.
I'm trying to build my 90mm FlyFly so it can be handlaunched at Rogo. As Jeff said way back this means keeping it light. I also want that whooshy sound the 12 bladers make and thus my choice of 6S and the 600g HK EDF Jeff referenced in his last post. (I've already blown up one 100A ESC, one CS 12 blade 90mm fan and discarded a cheap HK motor which wasn't gonna last so a matched, balanced 6S EDF unit looked pretty attractive)
I'm actually putting the retract mounts in (spent most today building the nose retract mount so I can put an E-flite 25-46 electric retract in) but will leave the retracts out until I have a paved runway...watching Ronnie handlaunch his F-16 and watching the guys on the RCGroups 90mm Sabre thread handlaunch has convinced me.
There are lots of ways to power a model. Time will tell if all or any of us got it right!
Quote from: flying saucer on November 11, 2012, 08:35:24 PM
Good choice, I hear they fly well. What power system you putting in?
Hi Colin,
I was looking at this plane for quite a while but was worried about taking of and landing from our field -do you think this will be an issue?
How big are the wheels and what batteries are you planning to use for the plane?
Thanks,
Bobby
Well, I actually cancelled my order for that very reason. (mainly) I was reading about too many problems getting off of grass because of the combination of the weight of the plane and the size of the wheels (2" limit) Retracts/struts had to be modified etc etc.
As you probably know, our field is not the best in the world for rolling takeoffs with two inch wheels and smaller, especially something that weighs in between 8 and 10 pounds. Some have bungee launched it with great success but one of the attractions for me with a semi scale looking plane is the rolling takeoff so the bungee route didn't quite appeal. Maybe if/when we install a Geotex runway like has been suggested I will revisit this one. :)
However as of now, taking everything into consideration (would also have cost me about a grand to get into the air) I decided to pass. :(
Colin
I started the build today and completed step one.
I must say, I'm a little disappointed with the fit of the 2 fuse halves. Now that the front half is together, I can visibly see a difference in the horizontal alignment of approx 10 degrees, from the top of the fuse to the bottom. I hope when the wing is fitted, it will all line up.
I thought with it being big, that the quality, alignment and finish would be excellent. It's just a big foamy, I guess.
Plus, I got glue on the fuse so will need some Cadez paint magic to get it to show standard (how many beers, Greg?)
S
Well, I finally felt well enough to approach the building table again yesterday. But I continue to be disappointed with the quality of this kit. One of the horizontal stabilizers was bent like a banana, and the 2 sides of the rear half of the fuse also didn't fit together properly. So the whole build is taking way longer than it should. There are some nice touches though, like the servo extension wire runs in the wall of the fuse, so the thrust tube is clear.
Anyway, I added lots of carbon to the tail, and re-hinged the elevators. And have glued the tail together and added servos for the 2 elevators. I also managed to find an exact match for the green paint, and a fairly good match for the dark grey. Just need to mix some for the underside grey.
There was a sticky moment (quite literally) when I managed to get some glue in the thread of the blind nut that is used to attach the wing! Anyway, half an hour of gentle persuasion and modelers tenacity and cunning managed to rectify the situation. 8)
Today I hope to join the 2 fuse halves together. The 2 halves (front and back) do not look particularly big, but when I hold them together this thing is as tall as me almost! Very difficult to see if you have everything lined up, when holding it together!!! :o
Lookingngood Simon! Have you decided on a power system yet?
Hi Bill,
I'm going with the Lander DPS 90mm 5 blade fan on 6S, if the fan will fit. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17223__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_EDF_unit_with_1900kv_Motor_1750watt.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17223__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_EDF_unit_with_1900kv_Motor_1750watt.html)
How is your F-86 coming along? I'd be really interested to know if you are you having the same issues with fit and alignment of parts? And are you planning to use a thrust tube, inside the actual body, or just use the body as the thrust tube (I was looking at some pics of Michael's Hawk today and I think it has a thrust tube sticking out the back?)
Cheers,
S
Quote from: wollins on January 02, 2013, 09:02:02 AM
Well, I actually cancelled my order for that very reason. (mainly) I was reading about too many problems getting off of grass because of the combination of the weight of the plane and the size of the wheels (2" limit) Retracts/struts had to be modified etc etc.
As you probably know, our field is not the best in the world for rolling takeoffs with two inch wheels and smaller, especially something that weighs in between 8 and 10 pounds. Some have bungee launched it with great success but one of the attractions for me with a semi scale looking plane is the rolling takeoff so the bungee route didn't quite appeal. Maybe if/when we install a Geotex runway like has been suggested I will revisit this one. :)
However as of now, taking everything into consideration (would also have cost me about a grand to get into the air) I decided to pass. :(
Colin
That's too bad Colin, was looking forward to seeing this one in the air, and more high performance EDFs in general.
Just yesterday Bobby brought my attention to one for sale at a very attractive price on Rc Canada. Very tempting, I may go with a bungee launch takeoff which will save some weight and cost, but no idea what the pull limit is of the bungee system me/Ronny built, will probably need a minimum of 30lbs of pull strength for a clean takeoff! :o
Well, here's the fuse and it doesn't look too much like a Banana! :D
I just got the 90mm DPS fan out of the packet - there's no way that's fitting in my Hunter! So it's on to plan B......
However, the FlyFly fan surround does fit so nicely in the airframe, and I've read about people putting other rotors in it, so.......more research.
OK, so I've narrowed down the EDF/Power system to 3 options.....
1 - Freewing 90mm EDF with 1750kV motor. Approx $80
2 - Changesun 90mm 5 blade EDF with 1850kV warhead motor. Approx $50
3 - WeMoTec Midi Fan Pro 90mm EDF with HET Typhoon 650-58 1760kV motor. Approx $220
I have ordered all 3 (except the Typhoon motor) since I have another 90mm EDF build lined up, so I will chose 2 out of the 3 for my projects and have a spare.
Quote from: sihinch on January 13, 2013, 04:02:36 PM
Hi Bill,
I'm going with the Lander DPS 90mm 5 blade fan on 6S, if the fan will fit. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17223__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_EDF_unit_with_1900kv_Motor_1750watt.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17223__Alloy_DPS_Series_90mm_EDF_unit_with_1900kv_Motor_1750watt.html)
How is your F-86 coming along? I'd be really interested to know if you are you having the same issues with fit and alignment of parts? And are you planning to use a thrust tube, inside the actual body, or just use the body as the thrust tube (I was looking at some pics of Michael's Hawk today and I think it has a thrust tube sticking out the back?)
Cheers,
S
Hi Simon,
F-86 is moving slowly but steadily. Fit has not been a big issue except for the vertical stab which didn't want to sit vertically. I added an operating rudder so I pretty much had to get the rudder mounted when the rear fuse halves went together. Air had a distinct blue tinge while this operation was in progress. Finish is anything but stellar as the foam EPO? is really soft and marks if you breathe on it.
I'm using HK's Lander 90mm 6S alloy unit but I chose the 12 blade version as I want the whooshy quiet sound instead of the leaf blower noise.
This choice involved a few challenges too. To drive the 12 blade 90mm fan with 6S involves a bunch of amps...and although I've been reassured by Tim Wan from Lander that I can use a 100A ESC, the draw is way too close to 100A for my comfort level so I've ordered a Castle ICE HV2 120A which almost involved taking out a mortgage on my house (they are pricey, but I like the data logging feature). Pinnacle gave me a bit of a break on the price and I'm waiting for it to arrive.
With the bullet fairing on the back, the EDF unit wouldn't go in the fuse without hogging out one edge of the EDF cavity but it's coming slowly.
My model does have a thrust tube but there's no taper that I can see and I didn't check to see if the exhaust end was 90% ish of the FSA.
The FlyFly F-86 has a reputation for folding wings even though it was never meant to be a carrier aircraft. Unfortunately the folding operation is likely to occur in flight (Michael Rogozinsky's original FlyFly F-86 suffered this fate) with usually disastrous results. The cure (well documented on the RCGroups thread on this model) is to add carbon tube spar(s) and/or carbon slab spars in the wing to strengthen the molded foam spars (foam spars on a model this size and weight?)
Done..just waiting to be glued in.
The nose gear has presented some challenges too. I'm using e-Flite 25-46 retracts which meant designing and building a mount for the nose retract. The one I ended up with is 1/4" ply and the mount will be permanently glued into the model. The mount has to integrate with the whale bone shaped ribs inside the nose so that took a few evenings. Like Colin I'm a bit leary of landing and taking off at ROGO with a larger heavier EDF (GEOTEX to the rescue?) so I'm going to follow Tom Muir's and Ronnie's lead and try hand launching until a smoother runway is available.
The last challenges which pop into my mind are purely cosmetic but they BOTHER me.
1. The framing molded into the canopy (I have the FlyFly and a Park Flyer Plastics canopy) is simply wrong and does not capture the character of the real aircraft. All the Sabres I've seen or Googled have a canopy arch frame that meets the cockpit edge at 90deg. Both molded model canopies are about 70deg and every time I look at it I cringe. Have attempted a remedy but not sure it's an improvement.
2. The molded nose cones from FlyFly and PFP both look like they'd be happier on a large mouthed bass and miss the character of the real Sabre, especially the Canadair versions which I'm trying to model. I know EDF models have to make concessions from scale to get enough air flow but the FlyFly F-86 already has a huge cheater hole through the nose gear cavity and I'd like to do better on scale appearance. There's a guy in California who molds glass nose cones for this model and I think I'll see if he'll do one for me.
I really didn't mean to sound negative about this model...I've learned a lot from building it (Maiden time will tell if I've learned enough) and I've had fun...really!
I've still got the challenge of applying the large Golden Hawk graphics which Callie did for me and trying to get them on straight. I think I'll have a beer or two AFTER I get those on. Target date is TEMAC Jets Fun Fly.
I'll try to get some pictures together and post on a separate thread.
Hi Simon,
I thought the 12 blade HK 90mm EDF is designed for a higher cell count (on their site they mentioned 8-10s are you using a different motor,
100Amp is quite a lot you can not go to a higher number of cells and reduce the current?
Not using 12 blades Bobby. All the fans I listed are either 5 or 6 blades:
Freewing http://rc-castle.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=492 (http://rc-castle.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=492)
Changesun http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11261__High_Torque_EDF_Ducted_Fan_Unit_5Blade_90mm_1600W.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11261__High_Torque_EDF_Ducted_Fan_Unit_5Blade_90mm_1600W.html)
WemoTec http://www.espritmodel.com/edf-wemotec-midi-pro-fan.aspx (http://www.espritmodel.com/edf-wemotec-midi-pro-fan.aspx)
Sorry for confusing between you and Bill, was reading the progress on my phone....too small for a long thread.
But to your point the panther was flying with a smaller diameter fan but somewhat similar spec to what you are looking at. Even though the day I was flying it was not warm and it seems like EDF's are not performing well in the cold still the Panther is significantly smaller, are you sure the setup you are looking for will be enough?
-This is the unit I was using with a 6s nanotech 25-50C 4000mAh:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__27559__Alloy_DPS_Series_70mm_10_Blade_EDF_unit_with_2200kv_Motor_1900watt_6s_.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__27559__Alloy_DPS_Series_70mm_10_Blade_EDF_unit_with_2200kv_Motor_1900watt_6s_.html)
The real spec is around the 1500w+ and 2kg thrust (in the plane), I'd did reach over 1700Wbut With higher trimming and did not notice significant increase in thrust.
Yes, it will be enough. It was originally meant for 5S and Michael flies one of the above power systems in his Hawk. Plus, other references (like RCGroups) say it's enough. Check out what they say here:
http://www.jepejets.com/jepeshop/hawker-hunter/548-jepe-fast-foam-bae-power-hawk.html (http://www.jepejets.com/jepeshop/hawker-hunter/548-jepe-fast-foam-bae-power-hawk.html)
Although I want "spirited" performance, I am happy to keep it somewhat 'scale.'
Quote from: sihinch on January 14, 2013, 04:28:27 PM
Not using 12 blades Bobby. All the fans I listed are either 5 or 6 blades:
Freewing http://rc-castle.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=492 (http://rc-castle.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=492)
Changesun http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11261__High_Torque_EDF_Ducted_Fan_Unit_5Blade_90mm_1600W.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11261__High_Torque_EDF_Ducted_Fan_Unit_5Blade_90mm_1600W.html)
WemoTec http://www.espritmodel.com/edf-wemotec-midi-pro-fan.aspx (http://www.espritmodel.com/edf-wemotec-midi-pro-fan.aspx)
The wemotec has a lot of potential, especially when paired with the right motor (and balanced).
As far as the freewing, I thought it looked familiar.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__14788__90mm_EDF_unit_with_3553_1750kv_Motor_1500watt.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__14788__90mm_EDF_unit_with_3553_1750kv_Motor_1500watt.html)
I believe this is same unit from the King. Reviews seem good on it as well.
That's the one Jeff. They've been out of stock for ages on the King. I've been waiting for them to get it since beginning of Dec!
Well, it's not very exciting to look at, but 2.5hrs tonight has moved the wings along a little. I cut the ailerons off, re-hinged them, and added the control horns. And I had 1 servo, that you can see with the extension wire in the pictures.
I managed to add the control horns to the elevators too! :)
Next - retract mounting plates, and then decide on which retracts to go with! ???
Well, after much deliberation, I ordered the E-Flite 15-25 tricycle undercarriage last night. I decided on these because the mounting plate will fit the designed supports. I decided this was especially important to me for the nose gear.
Plus, for everyday use at TEMAC, it has regular sprung steel legs, which I think will be the most practical.
I also finished painting the pilot this weekend and glued the canopy together.
Hi Guys,
Bill in particular. Regarding funny canopy and nose cone of F-86 I have the name of a company that provides good looking replacements for these items for flyfly models at a very reasoanble price.
I'll post it later when I get home from work.
I have also found that the FlyFly kits are a bit of a challenge to get everything lined up.
You need 3 hands and the ability to modify and understand the reinforcements that need to be made but in the end you can have a VERY attractive model that performs well.
I'm thinking of getting the Hunter and there is also a place that sells the FlyFly Mig 29 for $150.
Ken
Hi Bill , Simon, Piker and all others on this thread,
The name of the place that supplies Fly Fly upgrades is : Parkflyerplastics.
The nose cone for the F-86 is $ 8.
Hope this helps.
Ken
Hi Ken,
I have the Park Flyer Plastics replacement canopy, cockpit and nose cone already. Maybe I'm too fussy but the PFP canopy misses the character of the Sabre exactly the way the FlyFly canopy does. PFP's nose cone misses the boat too and I've ordered one from a guy in California who molds his own which IMHO look bettr than either FF's or PFP's.
I'm struggling with ESC location in the model.
Simon,
Just got my April Fly RC magazine and there's a feature article on the FlyFly Hawker Hunter even though the cover says it's a Hawker Hurricane feature.
Thanks Bill. I got mine today, too!
Look at the ugly gap over the top of the wing. I'm determined to reduce that gap on mine!
They flew theirs on 5S and a 1500kV stock system, so I should be OK on 6S.
I've got similar with my FlyFly too.
A little more work yesterday, fitting the retracts and aileron servo wires......
Hope to get the wings joined today, and then I've got some work to do (for the paid job!) :'(
Based on my (learning) experiences, your retract installation looks perfect for our field.
For a little extra suspension, insert small strips of elastic between the retract and the plywood before screwing it in.
Quote from: sihinch on January 31, 2013, 04:25:55 PM
They flew theirs on 5S and a 1500kV stock system, so I should be OK on 6S.
Most likely yes, but it's hard to say without knowing the rest of your setup. All we know for sure is the input voltage of your power system will be 22volts. As Bill mentioned earlier the most important thing is how much thrust you will have once everything is in the model.
Also it depends on what your goal is for the model. Are you simply looking to be able to takeoff and fly around, or do you want jet like performance?
Keep in mind that while foamie EDFs are typically lighter than composite models, they also have more drag.
Quote from: flying saucer on February 03, 2013, 04:51:15 PM
Quote from: sihinch on January 31, 2013, 04:25:55 PM
Also it depends on what your goal is for the model. Are you simply looking to be able to takeoff and fly around, or do you want jet like performance?
Scale speed ...
The FlyFly Hawker Hunter is approx. 1/11.5 size of the full scale.
Full scale maximum speed is 715 mph.
Model scale maximum speed is 62mph.
62 mph (and less) would look like true jet performance.
I agree that I am going for scale speed on this one, but it's about 1/9.5 scale (not 1/11.) It's 60" long! So 700mph will be about 73mph.
Sorry to correct you Michael. ;)
Jeff - my power system considerations have all been listed previously, in this thread. All options have been determined as a result of research. The magazine article was 5S with stock fan and housing, which I know to be less efficient than the 3 fans that I am considering.
I stand corrected, but my point is that some of us are flying too fast.
73mph is not that fast.
I agree.
This model I would like to be a scale performer, with enough thrust and power for a good take off and climb-out.
The real Hunter, for it's time (1960's) was a quick aircraft, but certainly didn't have the power, climb authority and acceleration of the current generation of fighters. Although I gather it handled very nicely, especially at low level (around 50ft!)
With the retracts in, and fan and esc in place, plus servos, it actually feels quite heavy. I've not weighed it yet, but I think 73mph might be optimistic! :)
Quote from: sihinch on February 03, 2013, 08:53:32 PM
I agree that I am going for scale speed on this one, but it's about 1/9.5 scale (not 1/11.) It's 60" long! So 700mph will be about 73mph.
Sorry to correct you Michael. ;)
Jeff - my power system considerations have all been listed previously, in this thread. All options have been determined as a result of research. The magazine article was 5S with stock fan and housing, which I know to be less efficient than the 3 fans that I am considering.
Sounds good Simon, I don't think you'll have any trouble meeting or
exceeding your target regardless of which setup you go with.
73mph is not really that fast.
A standard Parkzone Habu flies faster than that.
Quote from: Michael on February 03, 2013, 09:22:19 PM
I stand corrected, but my point is that some of us are flying too fast.
73mph is not that fast.
I am not sure I understand, too fast for what? Not everyone is a
half throttle or scale flyer. I like models with a very wide
performance envelope, and enjoy all types of flying. In addition to
full power flight, I often glide and do slow passes at just above
stall speed (by the way I don't think stall speed scales in quite
the same way as top speed).
Now if you look at many 3'rd 4'th and 5'th generation jet fighters
such as the F16, Mig 29, Su 27, Mirage III, F22 etc.. these all
have top speeds of Mach 1.7 to Mach 2+. Based on your calculations
an average 90mm model would need to attain around 130-150mph at
full power to fly scale.
As much as I'd love to have a 150mph EDF, In a lot of cases I don't think that's realistic. With all the
different types of models and power systems we can choose from,
there are just as many different flying styles each individual
modeller can enjoy.
If you wish to continue this discussion, perhaps one of the forum mods can create a new thread?
Too fast for scale; not necessarily too fast for fun.
However, most of our scale models are flown at faster than scale speeds.
I'm sure some of the models of modern jets are exceptions.
Off topic here but "scale speed" should not be calculated. It should look about right but not be a set number in my opinion. I would like to see a 40" scale Cub stay in the air for example.
Please note : all above is opinion!
Flying fast is fun and we all take the opportunity to haul ass with our planes on occasion :)
But, if you're trying to recreate the essence of the full size, you need to fly much slower than you think. Yes, that can be boring compared to roaring by at full bore, but flying at slower speeds can bring a quality to the flight that makes the model appear and "feel" more realistic.
I'm most familiar with my own planes so I'll use them as examples. My Sandringham looks most realistic when flying by at just above stall speed. It's still probably flying much faster than "scale", but creates a much better effect compared to full speed. My Zero, that I was flying this past summer, was fun to blast by at full throttle, but appeared (and sounded) much more realistic when flown at lower speeds.
I know the tempation is to fly jets as fast as possible, because they ARE, after all, jets!, but to Michael and Simon's point, they actually look more realistic while flying a more scale speed. Also consider that when we see full scale jets flying in person, usually at airshow's, when they're low to the ground, they're flying well below the sound barrier, probably 500mph max. When you see an F-18 do a pass at the Toronto airshow, it takes several seconds to cross the view of the audience lined up along the waterfront. To recreate that impression with our model F-18s, etc., flying across Rogo field, we also need to take a few seconds for the pass in order to create the most impressive and scale like effect, especially with a "for the camaras" partial bank, for effect ;D
BTW, I'm generally proud of us electric flyers as we generally do fly our models at a much more realistic speed compared to the glow guys. We know what the left stick is for. I HATE watching a glow model, say a cub, or a WWI biplane being flown around like an Extra. It's just damn ugly!
Robert
Well I guess everyone likes something different. When it comes to jets my personal view is that they are capable of flying as fast as humanly possible! ;D
Wings, anyone? ;)
I'll take mine battered with medium sauce and a side of fries.
Looking good Simon!
I take it you've decided not to do flaps?
No flaps. I rea somewhere about this model not really needing them. But the real reason is that the aileron/retract servo wiring in to the fuse was already a pain, and I didn't want to add to it!
I added some carbon reinforcement to the fuse, over the wing shoulder last night. And then fitted the wing - I must have 3 to 4mm panel gaps! Looks terrible. So tonight I'm going to cut some blue foam fillers.
Saw your post about ESC to battery lead length on Ed's power system thread. Are you going to try to re-locate the ESC closer to the battery?
Yep! Gonna put the ESC in the cockpit, I think.
Stock ESC location is about 15 inches from the battery. And I've seen photos on RCGroups of the Hunter with an ESC fire, which after Ed's post I'm putting down to the capacitors letting go. So I'm moving the ESC!
Glad to help guys. Please also note the part about twisting the motor leads and keeping the ESC power leads tight together. I admit I have no first hand experience with this its just what research showed.
On one of my models, due to the design all the electronics had to be installed right near the tail of the plane. At the time I had vaguely heard from somewhere to keep the power wires short as possibe. Reluctantly I ran ridiculously long battery wires from the ESC to the cockpit where the battery went. Easily 30+ inches. Had 20 flights without a hitch. The ESC is now in another plane.
Please take this with a grain of salt as this is only my personal experience and do not want to over rule the experts.
Open gap surgery. It may look ugly now, but once sanded and filled, then some Eze-kote added and painted, hopefully you will never know! :o
Step one, complete - now I need to do the other side. Then I will remove the wing, reinforce the fillets, and cover with eze-kote.
Looking good Simon. What's EZE Kote? Think it might be what I need to smooth the foam where I did the nose job on the Sabre. Was planning to use drywall mud thinned a bit...EZE Kote better?
Good stuff Simon ;D
Eze-kote is the brand name of (what I think is) a water based polyurethane varnish??
Here is a link;
http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/eze-kote-DLMBD37 (http://www.horizonhobby.com/products/eze-kote-DLMBD37)
It's an English product carried by Pinnacle.
Dries in about 30 minutes.
Jack.
I bet someone bought a giant pail of water based polyurathane from home depot, devided it into small bottles, put an airplane on the front and is making a 1000% margin ;D
That being said, that's the price I'm willing to pay for the convenience of small quantities for hobby use.
Went to Pinnacle yesterday and paid someone that 1000% margin and bought a bottle of EZE Kote.
So I started on the nose wheel installation today - the bit I was dreading the most! And, as soon as I'd started, I realised that I was going to have to cut out the stock mount! >:(
Anyway, I cut a new ply plate, epoxied it in, and re-mounted the E-Flite retract. It looks good, so now I just have to figure out how to connect the steering servo to the nose-leg. Any suggestions?
Plus, I was very happy with my wing-gap fillets. I've assembled the model, for photos, and will post in a sec.
Now, just need to finish the retracts, wire up the fan & ESC, and then get Greg C to touch-up a few places and weather it! :)
Photos.......
Nice!
Bigger than I thought.
I keep bashing the nose on the ceiling, when I lift it up to work on the center section!
Here are the specs:
Specifications:
• Wingspan: 43.7in (1112mm)
• Wing Area: 806sq.in (52sq.dm)
• Length: 59.3in (1507mm)
• Height: 23.4in (596mm)
• Flying Weight (with Fixed Landing Gear): 74oz (2100g)
Quote from: Michael on February 10, 2013, 05:16:26 PM
Nice!
Bigger than I thought.
I was going to ask how long it was but I think we covered that one at the last meeting.
I was told that you have to keep it shorter than 6"
I don't know what you guys are talking about.
My wire from the battery to the speed control is really long, and everything works just great.
However, I don't recommend you guys try it; it's not for beginners; this is for talented experts only.
;D
Quote from: sihinch on February 10, 2013, 05:28:01 PM
I keep bashing the nose on the ceiling, when I lift it up to work on the center section!
I often bang mine up walking through doorways. ;)
Short doors eh!
Jack.
Quote from: sihinch on February 10, 2013, 04:40:43 PM
So I started on the nose wheel installation today - the bit I was dreading the most! And, as soon as I'd started, I realised that I was going to have to cut out the stock mount! >:(
Anyway, I cut a new ply plate, epoxied it in, and re-mounted the E-Flite retract. It looks good, so now I just have to figure out how to connect the steering servo to the nose-leg. Any suggestions?
Plus, I was very happy with my wing-gap fillets. I've assembled the model, for photos, and will post in a sec.
Now, just need to finish the retracts, wire up the fan & ESC, and then get Greg C to touch-up a few places and weather it! :)
Did you solve connecting the steering servo to the nose leg? If your retract is like the e-flite I have, a short threaded pushrod with clevis at the retract end and z-bend at the servo end will work.
Your Hunter wing specs have me scratching my head...ws 1112mm, wing area 52 dm2...compared to the FlyFly F-86 wing specs at 1420mm ws but only 37 dm2...is the chord that different?
Simon was over at the house and brought over the Hunter... Wow what a beautiful and "Big" plane! Can't wait to see that thing in the air! Nice to know it still fits in the Protege5!
Greg's airbursh mastery was at work again last night. Only this time, for the most part, I hope you can't see what he's done! He was blending the paint for me, where I'd messed the stock paintwork up. Thanks Greg! :)
The chord at the wing root is quite large in this model, Bill. I am guessing about 18" maybe even more. In fact, if the fuse wasn't so long, with a tail, it could almost look like a delta. So even though my wingspan is smaller, I'm not surprised about wing area.
Perhaps you can see in these photos?
Very nice.
(Greg's triplane in the background is no slouch either!)
Yes, but Greg is working two jobs right now as everyone keeps leaving the office.. So no time for the Fokker!
So I just wired up the esc and motor and am very underwhelmed by the quick static test that I did. I used a Storage charged 6S lipo but only got 50A and about 1050watts input.
I was expecting more like. 70-80A and 1500-1700 watts.
Can anyone make me feel better?
Simon, if it makes you feel any better, the recent bench test of the EDF in my FlyFly was similarly underwhelming. Ed suggested I should try again after I warm up the batteries (also 6S) but my basement is still pretty frosty and I'm not sure my wife would like a 90mm EDF at full song anywhere upstairs. Best part was the paper storm the test run created...I have model plans pinned up in my workshop and they ended up everywhere but on the wall!
If we can't improve, we'll have to putt around TEMAC and tell everyone the models look like they're flying slowly because of their size.
In my opinion, those numbers should translate into scale-like takeoffs and flight.
In my opinion, once in the air, you will likely enjoy flying those big models at about 60% to 70% throttle.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That's better! 8) 8) 8) 8)
Fully charged battery, quick static test:
77A
1700+ watts
;D ;D ;D
Decals added - just need to sort the retracts out now.
Quote from: Wingnutz on March 02, 2013, 12:29:50 AM
Simon, if it makes you feel any better, the recent bench test of the EDF in my FlyFly was similarly underwhelming. Ed suggested I should try again after I warm up the batteries (also 6S) but my basement is still pretty frosty and I'm not sure my wife would like a 90mm EDF at full song anywhere upstairs. Best part was the paper storm the test run created...I have model plans pinned up in my workshop and they ended up everywhere but on the wall!
If we can't improve, we'll have to putt around TEMAC and tell everyone the models look like they're flying slowly because of their size.
Warm up the batteries upstairs and do the test downstairs??
At any rate with good, high-discharge lipos you should get exactly the specs Lander promises.
PS check with Lander, you may also be able to play with the ESC timing to get more/less power.
Undercarriage sorted and wing tanks added.
Now I just need to tidy the wiring and add the battery fastener and she's ready to maiden.
Congratulations Simon!
She sure looks sweet.
It won't be long now-spring is arriving.
Ken
Looks great simon. With a little paint your patio could look like a taxiway!
Great work.
Looks fantastic! Looking forward to seeingipt in the air!
Thanks Guys.
I'm slightly concerned because it has such a long tail pipe that, when it "rotates" and the nose wheel lifts off, it only needs about 15 degrees angle before the tail strikes the ground! I guess I have no option other than scale take-offs, and gentle climb outs! :)
I'm going to maiden today!
Wait until after 2:00pm
Please.
Jack.
Results? There has to be results.
Well, she flew! Right in to a tree!
Currently, it's stuck 50ft up in a tree, in the lumber yard! :(
My bad, I think. Power was pulsing and I was going to abort, but she lifted off. The the wind pushed her right, towards the trees, but she was struggling to climb. The left wing (which I have) clipped one tree and toppled the plane in to the next tree. And it's still there, wedged in a V of branches.
6S 5000mAh lipo, E-Flite retracts, Wemo-tec fan, 85A esc.......all stuck there.
There is a reward for anyone who can get it down! :)
Thanks to Ed, she's down! ;D
But in about 6 pieces (not Ed's fault, I must add!)
And.......I've started the repair! :o
good on you!!... thought for sure you were going to bin her.
Looking forward to seeing the re-maiden
Hurray! :D Hope to see the model looking like new soon! Lump in throat time when she went into the tree!
I love the support we get from each other in this club, and the willingness of friends to sacrifice their own time (and safety) to help......
And now, if I'm honest, I love my Hunter even more! ;D
WOW Simon!
That looks amazing! If this cookie thing ever goes south on you I think you should consider cosmetic surgery!!
Nice job! You should add a small tree decal below the canopy to mark it's first kill.
Can't wait to see the successful re-maiden of the Hunter!
Love the weathering job, very Cadez like.
Jack.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://karenswhimsy.com/public-domain-images/tree-clipart/tree-clipart-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://karenswhimsy.com/tree-clipart.shtm&h=615&w=541&sz=202&tbnid=TA4FzD6oHlFoOM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=73&zoom=1&usg=__yszdOl-wLR8c87f34V9dOPBa8yI=&docid=pEiqwLu3qJwcoM&sa=X&ei=KMuPUZ6pPMKXqAGSooDIAQ&ved=0CD8Q9QEwBA&dur=777 (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://karenswhimsy.com/public-domain-images/tree-clipart/tree-clipart-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://karenswhimsy.com/tree-clipart.shtm&h=615&w=541&sz=202&tbnid=TA4FzD6oHlFoOM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=73&zoom=1&usg=__yszdOl-wLR8c87f34V9dOPBa8yI=&docid=pEiqwLu3qJwcoM&sa=X&ei=KMuPUZ6pPMKXqAGSooDIAQ&ved=0CD8Q9QEwBA&dur=777)
Doncha just love EPO!
Way to fix, Simon!!!
Painted, new 100A ESC installed (and checked - 77A, 1600watts) and ready to maiden (again!) :)
Preserver in the face of defeat! And if that doesn't work kick the living heck out of it.
Hey Ed keep the fishing rod handy in case lightning strikes twice. OH sorry it's a Hunter not a Lightning. LOL.
Jack.
just don't name the hunter George... he seems to like hitting trees ;D
George of the Jungle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4hXdsVUnp4#)
Simon dropped of a little something for helping him with the plane... I will in all likelihood be too fat to ever climb a tree again!
Thank goodness Monday is ride your bike to work day!
Well, I finally managed to fly my Hunter last night. I wouldn't call it successful in anyway though.
After 2 take-off attempts (which both ended up with the Hunter travelling the full length of the runway without lifting off) I managed to get it up, so to speak! I changed from a 6S 5000mAh battery to a 3300mAh battery, and I think she appreciated the weight loss! :P
The first flight was a challenge. Even after full left aileron trim, I still had to fly with about 50% aileron stick deflection to keep her level. Not sure if the issue was with the wings or the banana fuselage. I had no rudder to help. But I managed to fly for about 2 minutes and got her in to land.
I then added about 10mm left-roll aileron deflection with sub trim on the ground, and took her up for a second flight. I managed to get it to almost fly level with full left trim this time, so I decided to retract the undercarriage (as per the Frank VB school of maidening.) At this point, she rolled right and would not respond to left aileron. She rolled right in to the farmers field. Dead!
The theory last night is that, since I had no seperate BEC, when I retracted the undercarriage and the motors all pulled current, I lost the RX - a brown out. Obviously I cannot test this now, but it certainly sounds like a plausible theory. :'(
I am obviously upset, after all the work and the fact that it was dedicated to my Grandad (who worked on them in the 1960s.) But after all the build issues (parts not fitting great, wing servo connection a pain) and the bad flight (almost full left aileron to fly straight) I am not sure that I will get another one. But it did look awesome in the air - it had great presence. Only time will tell....... ???
In the mean time, I have the 70mm RC Lander version to try! Hopefully this one will do better (but I don't like the paint colours. Cadez? ;D)
Simon, I understand the grief, it's all the work and time, not the model that hurts. The plane looked good and it will be in the hall of fame as the worest flight attempts every.. But we should all stand back and learn a lesson here. SBEC with anything more than 4 servos. What Simon mentions is the exact example of overloading the system and causing not enough volts to the RX. But also remember that the Lancaster flew after we called it a dud.
So what is next? I don't know what the Lander plane looks like... what do you mean "Cadez?" Does this mean another Tuesday night with beer and paint? ;o)
Tuesday night with Beer and Paint! That's exactly right!
The green is not a nice green on the Lander model, and both the green and grey are shiny! Yuk!
Quote from: Gregor77 on June 05, 2013, 08:51:32 AM
So what is next? I don't know what the Lander plane looks like... what do you mean "Cadez?" Does this mean another Tuesday night with beer and paint? ;o)
sounds kinky ...is this by invite only?
It may be standing room only, and yes, it's VIP invitation only. Although all you need to do is ask and you will get an invite! ;D
The more the merrier! :o
That just means more beer!
Oh Simon, I feel your pain!!!