Okay so I've been working on this...off and on (mostly off) for close to two years..but it's finally coming together. Hopefully it'll be ready for TEMAC EDF Day. (2013)
Challenges along the way have included;
1. the FlyFly F-86's tendency to fold up its wings (in flight...definitely not recommended...ask Michael what happens if this occurs!) added carbon fiber tube and carbon fiber slab wing spars to avoid this (pics included)
2. my fascination with the new generation of high blade count whooshy sounding EDFs...bought a HK 90 mm 12 blade alloy 6S EDF which meant I needed a bigger ESC than I'd ever had before (pic included)
3. the Fly Fly has no rudder and I like rudders (pic included)
4. small wheels, especially ones on retracts have a hard time with ROGO Field bumps which necessitated building a really robust retract system even though I'll try to handlaunch the model (pic included)
5.canopies which are not molded to scale...both canopies I have (FlyFly and PFP) have the windshield arch frame hitting the fuse edge at about 70deg...on a real Sabre, North American or Canadair the frame meets the fuse at 90deg...Frankensteined the canopy frame with tape...not sure it's an improvement (pic included)
6. nose cones (FlyFly and PFP) both look like they belong on the front end of a large mouth bass, not a Sabre (I'm working on getting a glass nose cone from a guy in California who molds more scale ones)
It's been frustrating but fun and educational. Maiden flight will tell if I learned enough!
Lookin' good. I like the way you reinforced the nose gear.
BTW, I hope we get to see that little Crane fly one day too!
Wow, Bill, that looks AWESOME! Nice job on the front gear.
Can I ask what size/scale Pilot you used and where it's from, please? That's on my list of things to solve.
I hope you'll let me fly my Hunter with your Sabre?
S
Very nice model Bill, and looks to be a fair size as well for a 90mm. What is your wingspan and expected final weight?
Rob,
Didn't realize the Crane had made one of the pictures. That's another off and on two years + projects...scratch built and hopefully in the air this season.
Simon,
The pilot/cockpit is a Park Flyer Plastics add-on specifically for the FlyFly F-86. I'm not sure if PFP does stuff for the FlyFly Hunter. Looking forward to flying with your Hunter!
Jeff,
RCGroups guys are coming in anywhere between 6 and 9 pounds depending on battery/motor choices and how much extra stuff is on board. At those weights the model won't be a screamer with the published thrust for the EDF unit I've chosen but if I can come in towards the light end of the weight range, the model will have at least scale performance and should be hand launchable. There's a video on RCGroups of Tom Muir hand launching his FlyFly F-86 by himself. Firm push and the model flys right out of his hand...just like Ronnie's F-16. That's what I'm hoping for.
Ooooo... and I see plans for the M-5 ;D
Nice job on the front gear!
Quote from: piker on January 14, 2013, 10:21:35 PM
Ooooo... and I see plans for the M-5 ;D
Can't fool,you! My build queue is so messed up, I don't know where the M-5 is anymore ???
If you can keep it at the lower end (about 6lbs) you will have no problem hand launching it. Ronny has 1:1 power to weight (or just over) and it flys fairly scale.
Hey Jeff - how are you/Ronnie measuring the thrust from your EDFs? Do you have a scale system rigged up?
Sorry to hijack your thread Bill!
S
Hi Simon since you are testing a bunch of motors and fans, the best way will be to build a mount that will hold the motor to a plate which will than slide over one or two rails along the thrust axis, then attach a luggage scale to the plate.
...I just held the plane nose down on a scale (you can also take a larger piece of foam with an opening that will roughly fit over the nose of the plane)
Quote from: sihinch on January 16, 2013, 10:58:04 PM
Hey Jeff - how are you/Ronnie measuring the thrust from your EDFs? Do you have a scale system rigged up?
Sorry to hijack your thread Bill!
S
we use a Berkley digital scale and a nylon harness that the plane is strapped to. Its always a good idea to measure "installed thrust" to see how much you actually have in the model. We have noticed with good ducting you tend to lose 15-20% of what is achieved on a test bench (or quoted by the manufacturer), with poor ducting it drops A LOT more.
Hope that helps.
Struggling to deal with ESC location which will balance the model without non-functional ballast.
Since the model came out, FlyFly has moved the recommended CG almost 30mm forward.
My fascination with whooshy 12 blade EDF sounds and choice of an alloy 6S EDF (necessitating a heavy 120A ESC located behind the fan and CG)put extra weight behind the CG. :o
So, the other night, I hooked all the heavy bits on with the ESC in the back of the cabin area directly above where I think I'm going to hang it in the intake flow. Coming in at 5lb 14oz, the model still balanced slightly behind the recommended CG, but with batteries ooched forward, nose cone and wing tanks added I may be able to balance at the recommended CG with no ballast. With the ESC in stock location, this would have been impossible.
Relocating the ESC also eliminates the need to extend ESC to battery leads and will require only an extension of approx. 3" for the ESC to motor leads.
Sounds more straightforward than it's turning out to be. Working with 10 ga silicon wire, tearing out and re-installing the thrust tube and re-locating the fairing on the EDF has not been great fun! >:(
Two things happened today.
My new nose cone arrived from Air Sally in California. Thought all Tamiya Golds were the same...nope! So the nose cone is a different colour from the rest of the fuse... ::) Still, once the nose cone is mounted in the right place I think it's closer to scale than the ones I've tried already.
Took a deep breath and cut the floor of the cabin to locate the ESC ahead of the fan and hanging in the intake stream. It's ended up nearly a foot farther forward than it would have in stock location and with a weight of 5+oz. should get me close to no ballast balance :)
Attached show the new location of the ESC and the heat sink and capacitors of the ESC hanging in the intake stream.
Now to mount it!
The nose is nice, and your work is neat and clean.
I'm really looking forward to seeing you fly it.
Looks fantastic!
Nice job on the install, you're right, that looks like a beast of an ESC. Probably won't even break a sweat :)
Thanks for the encouragement guys. The RCGroups gang tell me I have to cut the nose of the fuse back a bit before I mount this nose cone to get a scale look. I kinda think they're right but I haven't got that brave yet.
Re-painted the nose cone with the correct gold...looks better and insulated and installed the motor lead extensions. Double shrink wrapped and wrapped the connections with electrician's tape as there'll be 100A ish through these and they sit pretty close together, running in a channel above the fan.
Do thrust tubes need to be glued in? This one fits really snugly and there's no way you can move it by simply pulling on it.
Ran the motor (6S)very briefly...not as much as I'd expected. It did blow the plans stuck on the wall all over the basement!
Max A - 83.8
Max Watts - 1647
Min V under load - 19.2
Max RPM 27-28,000
This was obviously a static test so I dunno if the fan was stalled and drawing fewer amps or the batteries sagged too much under load. Everything I'd read said to expect 100A...didn't happen according to the data log. Still the early FlyFly F-86's flew well with 5S and 1200W so maybe it'll be enough.
What's that, about 80A and 1700W, Bill?
Simon,
You're quick! Hadn't even finished the initial post and you'd asked about Watts and Amps! Re-posted with the readings from my logged data.
Like you said re: FlyRC review on the Hunter, that also flew on 5S, so I think we should be OK on 6S with the better fans we're using.
Warm packs should yield higher voltage under load. If your going to give it a shot again warm the packs to about 80degrees and I bet there is improvement. It takes quite some time to get big packs up to temperature. As the voltage climbs so will the amps remember.
Thanks Ed,
My batteries have been sitting in my unfinished basement and it's pretty cool down there. I'll charge them and warm them and try again.
Bill, looking at the specs of your fan you should be closer to 2200watts and 97 amps peak with a fully charged battery. I believe RC Lander use a power supply set at 22Volts for their testing. This is roughly equivalent to a good 45C 5000mah pack under load. Either way the 19.2 you are seeing is far too low at just 3.2volts per cell. Are you sure the battery was fully topped up?
I originally thought this would be a one week project...it's an ARF for crying out loud! It's almost two years and although I worked on the model again this weekend, to look at it you'd swear it's gone backwards! ::)
Decided to go for the more scale look of the Air Sally nose cone and the shortening of the nose entailed in that choice... usually this means cutting one inch off the front of the fuse and covering the surgery with the new cone...
Nope...if I cut this much off, the area of fuse where I'm mounting the retract plate would be cut in half...so, sand, sand, sand!
Along the way I decided to re-design the retract mount to give it a lower profile...nothing's ever simple!
I'm glad jets day is not this month!
Will re-try the motor test when my basement warms up!
That's an amazing job on the nose retract!
Very impressive!
Bill there is one at the lake in Trenton if you get out that way. Its static mounted on a pillar. I have some pictures of it but I don't know where they are right now. Just some inspiration for all your hard work.
http://www.google.ca/search?q=f86+trenton&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oy0PUaf8GejJ0wGrnoD4Dg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=360&bih=515&sei=qC0PUavHLYeB0AGviIGAAw (http://www.google.ca/search?q=f86+trenton&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=oy0PUaf8GejJ0wGrnoD4Dg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=360&bih=515&sei=qC0PUavHLYeB0AGviIGAAw)
Thanks Ed,
That's one of the best groupings of Golden Hawk Sabre photos I've seen. The shot from behind with flaps and air brakes deployed has got me thinking! A couple of the guys over on RC Groups have already done it but their photos weren't as inspiring!
Been busy with other projects but managed to get a few hours in on the Sabre. Finished the nose job...shortening the nose so that the aftermarket nose cone wouldn't look way too long and then filling, sanding and painting...filling, sanding and painting...
Photos show the nose before and after the Park Flyer nose cone was replaced with the Air Sally nose cone. Never used the FlyFly nose as it really didn't capture the character of the real aircraft.
Epoxied the nose retract mount into the model and as the work on the fuse is nearly done, couldn't resist applying one of the graphics Callie did for the model.
I like it! ;D
Great nose job Bill! She will be the belle of the ball
That looks awesome Bill.
I understand the temptation to apply graphics! I've managed to resist so far - but it's hard!
Hi Bill
Have you finished this plane?
Earlier on it seemed you were not happy with the power generated by the fan/motor.
Is it OK now?
According to the information on Hobby-King's website, the ESC needs to be set to 'hard' timing.
Did you do that?
Which ESC are you using?
What battery pack(s) will you be using?
Would 2 3-cell packs fit better?
Wow! That didn't take long. LOL.
Jack.
Quote from: Michael on April 08, 2013, 08:09:01 PM
Hi Bill
Have you finished this plane?
Earlier on it seemed you were not happy with the power generated by the fan/motor.
Is it OK now?
According to the information on Hobby-King's website, the ESC needs to be set to 'hard' timing.
Did you do that?
Which ESC are you using?
What battery pack(s) will you be using?
Would 2 3-cell packs fit better?
Michael, I am pleasantly surprised someone is still interested in this "build".
I have not worked on it since last post. I am doing more of the household chores now as my wife is ill...we got a date for her operation to remove one lung this morning so the wheels of the public health bureaucracy are finally grinding, but there's less time for building.
The other reason I have not worked on it is the number of other models I'm trying to finish/work on to deadlines, putting the F-86 fourth in line.
1. Norseman...wings for next Monday, April 15
2. Cessna Crane for next Pilot's Meeting, April 17 (maybe)
3. BH Mosquito for Warbirds Day May 2?
4. F-86 for Jets Day, June 2?
To answer your other questions;
The ESC is a Castle Creations ICE HV 120A. It's opto so I'm going to use a separate receiver battery just like I used to with the glow models. I don't understand hard timing or how to get my ICE set that way so I haven't done it.
I'm planning to use 2x 4500mah 3S, 35-70C batteries which give me some chance to get the canopy floor over top of the batteries. BTW, after Ed's talk and moving the ESC ahead of the fan to shorten the ESC to battery leads, I'm wondering if the use of the harness to connect two three cell batteries as a six cell means I should add a capacitor to the ESC as CC suggests?
I will get back to the model and with this in mind, I've been monitoring the FlyFly F-86 thread on RC Groups where Tom Muir is showing his build of a second FlyFly F-86. (Seeing his first one in Model Airplane News put the model on my gotta build that list)
Tom posted pictures of the Gorilla Glue/water spritzer method of securing the carbon arrow wingspar to the foam wing.
The Gorilla Glue foamed up like crazy taking up a whack of space inside the wing but allegedly adding very little weight. Any of you experienced types care to comment? Looked a bit like black magic to me!
As you may know, I folded the wings on my first F86 doing aerobatics on its maiden flight, with no wing spar.
I've always wanted to do another, so I finally purchased a kit.
I'll order the same fan as yours, but I'm not sure which ESC I'll use.
I currently have 2 Flyfly jets, both with the ESCs close to the fans, and have had no troubles with either.
I'm going to use 46-size E-Flite retracts, but I don't know if it'll be ready this season.
I managed to finish my Hunter at the weekend. All the throws were set-up, the battery seucring and balancing complete, and all the control connectors had fuel tubing added.
Now I just need to maiden it!
I decided to leave the 85A esc in (even though it pulled 77A at WOT) because the wires on the castle creations 100A Ice Lite that I bought wont fit my 4mm connectors, and I'm too lazy to re-solder everything.
I've put the esc above the nose wheel, with 20" motor wires, and a short 3" battery wire (after Ed's briefing.) Plus, even though it's not in the air flow, I hope it will get some cooling (from the nose wheel opening.)
Michael, Simon,
I look forward to flying these models with both of you...maybe we can have a FlyFly FlyBy (groan ::) ::) on TEMAC's Jets Day!
The website reminded me it's been a while since I posted here...no apologies...it's been an exhausting time for me. If you're reading this on a mobile, be forewarned...it's wordy.
Anyway after returning to the basement workshop after a month's absence,I got back to the FlyFly F-86 and solved almost all the little nigglies left...almost a perfect maiden.
I really wanted to get the model in the air before this stint of N wind and perfect weather goes away. Seems to me N is the perfect wind for handlaunching a big EDF...straight down the field and landing approach from the S so you have no nasty model grabbing hydro wires to worry about turning on to final. Rushed a bit to get the model ready for today and got everything done; re-located the receiver and satellite(now in the fiberglass nose cone) to get them farther from the ESC, battened down the hatches(built to allow access to the wiring connections), secured the canopy, bought, charged and mounted a new rx 4S battery, re-checked balance and throws...everything on my completion list except securing the wingtanks with magnets. (wingtanks will be the LG for grass fields and until I'm sure the model can carry the extra weight of retracts...geotex beckons) Hoped a
snug friction fit would hold the tanks until touchdown whereupon the plan was they would break away in anything less than a perfect touchdown and simply stick back on.
Jeff Feldsher handlaunched for me and the model sunk gently as it gathered speed and climbed majestically...dead steady with that delightful 12blade whooshy sound. First circuit, flawless but on the second, the starboard wingtank departed the aircraft somewhere along the tree line to the southeast of the field. (Glen said it hit one of the trees on the way down)
Zero clicks of trim suddenly became almost full right aileron but with Jeff madly clicking away for me, the model stayed rock steady and the landing was a non-event. "Elvis" the golden Sabre is a ***** cat with a lion's appetite for watts! Still for a model I expected would be slow and look even slower, it covered a lot of real estate in a hurry and that whooshy sound is way cool!
So which is harder to find, the needle in the haystack or a fifteen inch golden wingtank in the ROGO bean patch?
Wow! The censoring software on the site is really tough! *****cat wit a space becomes ***** cat! Ed, how do you do it?
So sad that I missed it but Congrats Bill. That's the first successful flight of a new FlyFly model this year.
Hope you found your wing-tank.
Simon
No joy finding the golden wing tank, but I do have two silver ones courtesy of Michael...BIG THANK-YOU!
Michael, fellow Lander EDF owner, take heart...the Lander EDF unit performance was disappointing on the bench but in the air, things are going better. Below is the CC data log from the maiden flight...98A and 2077W max...that's getting much closer to the published specs of 2250W on 6S. Maybe with two brand new batteries we can do a little better.
I'm also back to the workshop to re-build and fasten another drop wing tank and to build a bungee launcher for this model. Jeff and I got away with the hand launch on Saturday but it did not inspire confidence!
Tom Muir from Waterdown ON is bungee launching his F-86 using the wingtanks rather than a ramp and it looks a lot more solid than the hand launch we did on Saturday.
Still mucking about!