Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club Forum

Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club (TEMAC) => Building / Construction => Topic started by: Michael on January 29, 2013, 07:30:33 PM

Title: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on January 29, 2013, 07:30:33 PM
Next project - Top Flite Elder 40 balsa kit, to be powered by an E-Flite 46.

It's been several years since I built a balsa kit. This should keep me busy until a warmer and dryer flying season.

Now I'll have a vintage looking model to fly with Greg, Gordon, Robert, etc.

(My big Tiger Moth isn't quite old-enough looking.)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: thehaze on January 29, 2013, 08:52:12 PM
Any elder and it would be a flying rock....

Looks like an interesting build.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Andy Hoffer on January 30, 2013, 07:10:01 AM
That looks like a very cool model Michael, and a nice size.  Looking forward to seeing it.  Enjoy the build!

Andy
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on January 30, 2013, 09:33:14 AM
Cool!  Another "Rag and Wires" build.  Looking forward to the "report"   :)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: battlestu on January 30, 2013, 10:16:34 AM
i love the wheels!!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on January 30, 2013, 10:47:51 AM
Wheels were $35.00!  :o
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 02, 2013, 02:48:06 PM
... and they're off! ...

Construction started. The kit is die-cut; not laser-cut, but the quality is reasonably good, needing only minor adjustments for nice fits between pieces.

Tail building is done; glued, sanded and hinged (hinges not glued in); ready for when I get to the covering and assembly stages.

Took about 3 hours total so far.

The photo makes the parts look somewhat distorted; they are actually built very straight and symmetrical.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 02, 2013, 10:12:25 PM
Very nice, Michael.  It'll be a cool plane.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 02, 2013, 11:05:28 PM
Just spent 25 minutes taking ribs out of the die-cut balsa sheets.

25 minutes!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 03, 2013, 05:22:06 PM
I've spent several hours so far on the wings, and I figure I have several more to go.

I'm of two minds while building this model. On one hand I'm enjoying the process; on the other, I remember that the new E-Flite 50-size pattern plane takes one hour from the box to flying.

Anyway, the 'build' is pretty standard, and the kit is reasonably well made (not quite as good as the laser cut Sig 1/5 Cub I built a few years ago, but it's still good). The balsa seems pretty heavy, but I'm building everything as recommended. I will share more details about the modifications for the electric system when I get to that stage.

The wing uses only one servo for both ailerons. That's pretty 'old school', but that's how I'll build it.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 03, 2013, 09:35:23 PM
I spent 7 hours today putting the wings together on a foamie!  7 hours, on just the wings!
:o

That's one of the reasons I'm not scratch building at the moment - if a foam kit takes 7 hours, a balsa kit with ribs and spars will take weeks! ;)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 03, 2013, 10:37:24 PM
Actually Simon balsa builds are easier as your not wrestling with inaccurate moldings. that is unless you built them in...  a well designed laser kit would surprise you.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 04, 2013, 11:37:14 AM
Where are the wings?  All I see is a bunch of tools and glue!

But the tools and glue look great!

:)

Robert
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 04, 2013, 03:10:48 PM
Actually, I like the hollowed out ribs.  I assume cap strips are going on those ribs.  It'll be a very nice wing when finished.

Robert
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 04, 2013, 03:55:32 PM
The cap strips were applied to the top of the wings last night.

The hollowed-out ribs are a great idea because the ribs are just about as heavy as balsa can be!  :o
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Andy Hoffer on February 04, 2013, 04:38:15 PM
I'm intrigued by the pipe wrench !!  I've never used one of those on any of my builds.  Maybe when I get into the big leagues with you and Greg C.   I guess I've got a lot more to learn ...

Andy
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 04, 2013, 04:50:52 PM
Wrenches are the appropriate tool for weighing down wing sheeting that has been attached with white glue.  ;)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 04, 2013, 07:18:39 PM
You need to buy ten cans of pop like I use. Handy when you get thirsty too!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 05, 2013, 09:48:55 AM
I use this new type of glue called CA.  No need for old school clamping  :)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Gregor77 on February 05, 2013, 12:21:25 PM
CA, that was the stuff that caused me a lot of grief with my wing warping... It's hard to keep 80" straight.. I now use weights and wood glue...
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 05, 2013, 01:04:55 PM
Fast CA is not always so easy for each gluing area.

I'm using slow CA for cap strips, and white glue for wing sheeting.

Even 5-minute epoxy is too fast for some work.

I used 30-minute epoxy for 3 wing-joining dihedral braces.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 05, 2013, 02:01:19 PM
You just need to be fast, but with finesse   ;)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 05, 2013, 08:51:04 PM
More work over the last couple days.

Cap strips on the bottoms (CA with finesse  ;D ), sheeting on the bottom (white glue), and blocks for rigging points.

Ailerons, wing tips and sanding will probably take me into the weekend.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 05, 2013, 10:55:52 PM
Big step; wing halves glued together.

Aileron torque rods installed.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 06, 2013, 08:47:39 PM
Wing construction is complete; next a complete sanding.

Pilot was 'off the shelf' and expensive, but I think he'll look good behind a machine gun.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Papa on February 06, 2013, 10:06:30 PM
Is that a foot in his mouth? I thought you didn't like self images? LOL
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Gregor77 on February 07, 2013, 06:16:10 AM
Wow.  Looking good.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 07, 2013, 09:31:44 AM
I came to work early and brought the wing with me.

I sanded the wing, leaving a mess here at work instead of at home.   ;D
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 07, 2013, 09:53:53 AM
Oh how I miss building models at work! :-)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 07, 2013, 10:06:07 AM
Even though I'm the boss here, I have to make a good example.

I finished sanding before 9am, when we start.

(Yes, I am am posting on this website during working hours.  ;D )
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 07, 2013, 12:05:14 PM
Who you kidding?  Lynn is the boss!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 07, 2013, 10:57:29 PM
Well, Mr. Perfectionist himself, Piker, came over tonight, examined the wings, and declared my sanding job as a "first step".

I guess he's right. The smoother it is, and the less imperfections, the nicer the covering finish will be.

OK, I'll give it some more fine-sanding.

I also got started on the fuselage, and sorted out the motor mount, battery location and battery hatch, all with Robert's approval.  ;D
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 09, 2013, 03:12:41 PM
Fuselage started.

Going as per instructions, except firewall has been drilled for stand-offs matching the pattern of the E-Flite 46 mount.

Lots of tedious and 'physical' work, as all hardwood parts and posts must be carefully measured, angled and cut by saw, and then fine sanded to fit properly.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 10, 2013, 02:04:50 PM
Fuselage coming along, under the watchful eye of master builder Piker, who is making suggestions and helping me correct some minor mistakes along the way.

The motor installation is pretty simple, and the bay behind the firewall will have a removable top hatch (on the left in the photo).

Robert helped put the plane together for a short "hangar-flight".

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: battlestu on February 10, 2013, 04:07:21 PM
Looking good .... So what's up next? (Since this one is nearly done  ;D)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 10, 2013, 04:13:14 PM
There's still a lot to go.

- cowl sheeting
- landing gear and details
- sanding

-radio installation
- power system installation
- air cooling

- covering
- decals
- assembly

details
- flying wires and posts
- simulated bracing wires
- cockpit combing
- machine gun

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 10, 2013, 04:36:19 PM
Was that Robert's "Airplane News" cover shot smile?  ;D
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 10, 2013, 04:53:26 PM
Robert's always smiling.  ;D
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 11, 2013, 09:59:24 AM
You guys are so full of it!   ;D
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 11, 2013, 10:27:23 AM
Full of sawdust!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 11, 2013, 08:18:23 PM
More work:

hatch sanded, fairing/sheeting on wing, landing gear wires wrapped with copper wire and soldered.

Much more fine sanding to come.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 11, 2013, 08:26:00 PM
It's looking good Michael, but you're going to have to slow down. At this rate you could get another 2 planes (at least) built before proper flying season!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 11, 2013, 08:40:07 PM
In a few days I'm going to hit a stretch of work consisting of very long hour days, and won't have any time to build.

This model will still take a couple or a few more weeks.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 15, 2013, 11:01:29 AM
Sanding complete, open-work fuselage structure primed and painted, landing gear painted.

Next step, CLEAN THE WORKSHOP in preparation of covering.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 15, 2013, 11:22:07 AM
Urrgh, cleaning the workshop!  That's my next job, too!  And I'm not looking forward to it.  :(
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 16, 2013, 11:05:49 AM
WARNING to all TEMAC members:

That strange noise you hear is not dangerous; it's just Robert's eye's rolling back.



You see, I've decided to cover my Top Flite Elder in cream-coloured monokote, to replicate the high-gloss finish that was on the full scale prototype back in 1918. The full size Elder was an experimental monoplane used in the early 20th century by the BSAA (British Secret Agent Agency, which was the forerunner to the British Secret Service), which actually had a hand-lacquered high gloss finish (the plane; not the agency). The purpose of this experimental finish was to reflect glare into the eyes of enemy pilots. It is generally unknown, but the prototype was actually piloted by none other than George Bond, paternal grandfather to the famous spy, James Bond, who has been immortalized in all those motion pictures.

Anyway, Robert wanted me to use a fabric finish which would give a matte appearance, but that just wouldn't have been right.

Now you know why Robert is rolling his eyes so passionately.

;D
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on February 18, 2013, 10:55:35 PM
I heard that George was one of the last British pilots shot down in the war. He came out second best in an apocalyptic dogfight with Graf Erik Von Schwarzenegger (JA, Ah-nold's grandpapa) who was flying an experimental Fokker Siebendecker powered by a top secret 17 cylinder Benz BZ VI engine fuelled by fermented sauerkraut. Only slightly wounded in the crash, George escaped and hid in a hay wagon behind enemy lines until Armistice Day.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 19, 2013, 10:56:16 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 19, 2013, 03:44:53 PM
Wow, I thought nobody else knew about all this stuff, but obviously Gordon is well aware!

(Then again, Robert said I could spray dull-coat on the finished model, but then I couldn't keep telling the story.  ;D )
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on February 20, 2013, 11:14:43 AM
Actually, Michael, your decision to use a gloss finsh has historical precedent.  Take a look at this photo of an unrestored Fokker DVII with original covering (in the Brome Lake Historical Musem in Knowlton, Quebec).
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Papa on February 20, 2013, 02:16:31 PM
Quote from: gordonbw on February 18, 2013, 10:55:35 PM
I heard that George was one of the last British pilots shot down in the war. He came out second best in an apocalyptic dogfight with Graf Erik Von Schwarzenegger (JA, Ah-nold's grandpapa) who was flying an experimental Fokker Siebendecker powered by a top secret 17 cylinder Benz BZ VI engine fuelled by fermented sauerkraut. Only slightly wounded in the crash, George escaped and hid in a hay wagon behind enemy lines until Armistice Day.

Gordon you forgot that while rolling in the hay George met a milk maid named Frau Fleming. The result of the union was .. you guessed it ...Ian.

Jack.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 21, 2013, 09:31:21 AM
Quote from: gordonbw on February 20, 2013, 11:14:43 AM
Actually, Michael, your decision to use a gloss finsh has historical precedent.  Take a look at this photo of an unrestored Fokker DVII with original covering (in the Brome Lake Historical Musem in Knowlton, Quebec).

I was discussing this with Robert, and we agreed that many full scale prototypes actually had glossy finishes, but somehow, the look doesn't translate well to smaller models.

Anyway, I've started the covering and the rich and opaque cream colour actually looks pretty good. After several long days of work, I'm looking forward to this weekend to spending a few more hours on this project.

If the finished product is too glossy, I'll spray it with dull-coat.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 21, 2013, 09:44:19 AM
I have an old coat that Lesley says makes me look dull, if you want to borrow it?  ;D
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 21, 2013, 11:50:32 AM
My humble opinion is that there is a huge difference between the "glossy" real planes and the plastic covered models.  The high gloss finish on full sise planes like the WWI biplanes and Piper Cubs is painted (brush painted in the old days I'm sure) over a relatively rough, doped, linen surface.  Sure, the finish is/was glossy, but not smooth and therefore doesn't reflect light like a smooth gloss finish as seen on polished composite airfraft or cars.  Even metal airfraft have a relatively rough surface compared to a gloss plastic surface so don't have the same look.  And I'm pretty sure they didn't polish them up during WWII to look like show models every day.  Add to that, the difussion effect of distance through air, which dulls the look of everything from a distance, and the shinny full size look deminishes even more.  for example, if you look at a 1/6 scale model from 10 feet its like looking at the full size at 60 feet.  You don't see the same glossy finish as clearly from that distance.

I know Solartex maybe takes us a bit too far to the non-glossy side of the spectrum, but I think it's a lot closer to "scale looking" than glossy plastic.  Add the fact that war planes were generally dirty and you get even closer with the flat option.

I think plastic covering should only be used to represent composite aircraft... if your objective is to acheive a true scale look.

However, with that said, film covering is fairly easy to apply, light, easy to clean and repair, and generally looks nice.  The VAST majority of my planes have been film covered and I like it, so go with what works for you and what you enjoy.   :)

Robert
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Andy Hoffer on February 21, 2013, 12:11:31 PM
I like film for the reasons Rob has pointed out.  And the gloss only lasts about a day at TEMAC.  A few flights on a wet field and the spatters dull it down really nicely.  You should see the Yak54 I just bought from Frank.  You could probably grow stuff on it! :)

Andy
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 24, 2013, 12:12:47 AM
All structures are now covered.

Next is gluing in hinges, details, motor and radio installation.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Andy Hoffer on February 24, 2013, 12:16:11 AM
Yum!  Nice ARF!!

Andy
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Gregor77 on February 24, 2013, 06:49:22 AM
Wow. Looks amazing.  Why is it shiny?  Did I miss something.  Lol.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on February 25, 2013, 12:03:52 AM
More progress.

Tail glued on and 'flappy' parts hinged on.  ;D

'Combing' installed on cockpit area (black co-axial wire insulation slit down one side).

Motor installed.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 25, 2013, 08:47:32 AM
I'm glad to see it's looking good, because when I dropped of some Nooner's at Michaels, I nearly knocked this model on the floor!  :-\
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on February 25, 2013, 02:38:38 PM
Hey Simon,  Thanks for dropping my plane off at Michaels.  I'll get it tonight.  I hope he gave you a tip.

BTW, did you see my building project at Michaels?  I know it's not as exciting as the Elder...
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on February 25, 2013, 05:40:47 PM
I bet your project is going to take a lot of glue, Robert!   It was huge! ;)
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on March 01, 2013, 09:40:26 PM
Finished.

A few decals, flying wires (top only) and support structure, machine gun, inside of cowl painted black, radio installation complete and motor system installation complete.

Custom battery hatch shown; held on firmly by 4 magnets.

Final balancing when my battery flies in from Hong Kong, and then throws and exponential to be adjusted.

Maiden flight: a very dry April or May day.  :)

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on March 01, 2013, 10:38:56 PM
Looks fantastic!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on March 02, 2013, 01:48:46 AM
Beautiful work!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Gregor77 on March 02, 2013, 06:41:50 AM
Michael. That is a big gun you got there.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Gregor77 on March 03, 2013, 07:13:43 AM
Well I picked up a used elder at the swap this weekend. It had an os25 motor.  I installed a hk g25 in it. 50 am esc and will be running on 4s. Plane is very cool. It must have been the Rc gods playing some tricks as I got the Red Baron version of the elder. It matches the great planes dr1 colours exactly.  It was the first plane i saw at the show. Price was good.  Oh spring and summer are too far way.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: piker on March 04, 2013, 11:23:57 AM
The build looks great, Michael!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Gregor77 on March 12, 2013, 09:20:04 AM
Here is an image of the one that I converted from the swap.  :-\
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: sihinch on March 12, 2013, 05:58:30 PM
Nice job Greg - how long did that conversion take?
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on May 01, 2013, 11:02:46 PM
Maiden flight successful!

This was the first TEMAC maiden flight of any of the non-ARF balsa 'builds' of the winter.

The plane took off straight, and with a few clicks of trim, the model flew nice and straight, and did a few medium-slow low passes.
The plane does not glide too far as it has lots of drag, but with some power, it came in nicely for a slightly bumpy but relatively smooth landing.
The landing gear has no suspension so the model has to be landed just right.

Anyway, it landed just right!  ;D


Greg Cadez photo right after the maiden flight.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on May 02, 2013, 06:39:32 PM
Michael... Wanna help me maiden my Eindecker on the weekend?
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on May 02, 2013, 08:09:19 PM
Which day?

What kind of help? (he says nervously .... )

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on May 02, 2013, 08:10:10 PM
Sunday looks calmer at this point.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on May 03, 2013, 07:41:25 AM
Advice, moral support, garbage bags...
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on May 03, 2013, 03:41:41 PM
Moral support and a spotter you've got!

Garbage bags won't be needed.  ;D

Is Sunday OK?
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on May 03, 2013, 10:59:42 PM
You bet
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on May 04, 2013, 08:45:50 AM
See you Sunday.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on May 06, 2013, 04:59:13 PM
Maiden went OK, despite some stupidity on my part.  One of the servos was missing a retainer screw and the arm popped off, leading to loss of aileron control.  Glen managed to get her down in the beanfield with minimal damage (thanks again buddy!).  She will be fully repaired in time for next weekend.

Lesson learned.  Check EVERYTHING!
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Ededge2002 on May 06, 2013, 06:27:29 PM
TWICE! 

Glad it survived.
Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: Michael on May 06, 2013, 07:47:55 PM
Just for clarification, Gordon's plane did in fact fly well, and the damage was minimal, and I'm happy that Gordon wants to post his flight results in this thread about my Elder, but for the record, my Elder is just fine. Had two more nice flights on Sunday.

;D

Gordon - I have your pliers.

Title: Re: Top Flite Elder 40 electric conversion
Post by: gordonbw on May 06, 2013, 10:05:57 PM
Yeah, I was looking for those little guys. Thanks Michael!