Has anyone heard from the Keswick club?
They were going to let us know when they put in their geotex so we could observe.
Ken
I was speaking to one of the Keswick members and they have not installed their runway yet.
I was wandering if there are any plans for improvements to be made this year.
I am not sure what is the deal with geotex but at least maybe try to roll the field again with a real heavy roller - possibly after the last rain we got.
Although we can take off, taxing is almost impossible and not too fun unless using significantly large wheels.
Please don't get me wrong I am not trying to blame anyone or point any fingers, I think Temac is a great club with awesome people that make an effort to make improvements but I am sure that everyone will benefit from a smoother runway.
I know there is a field improvement committee that is planning to look into different options and is supposed to submit their findings and proposals to the board etc... But since we are not a huge corporation with many thousands of people and procedures I don't think that working to improve the field should be so difficult.
I am aware of the fact that not everything can or will work but it will be nice to move forward.
I think the cleanup session and rolling of the field was excellent and we should probably have more field improvements / maintenance days.
Beside the runway I have one more question - I understand that we are not allowed to have any permanent structures but can we build a couple of benches with a small roof to get some shade?
These are not permanent structures as they are not anchored to the ground.
A simpler option is to buy a few 10x10ft canopies - I saw them for around $60 the only problem will be storage as we'll need some kind of a shed.
If you don't agree just say so - again I appreciate everything that was done to the field but I think that continuous improvement is a goal that many have (and should have), from improving our piloting skills to buying new planes and so on.
Thank you
Bobby
Bobby,
Basically, all of your desires are great but bottom line is we are limited by funds.
We have a list of improvements that we want to make but we need to prioritise. Gravel for the parking area is our #1 priority right now.
The field has been rolled this year and there are no plan to do it again.
The committee is only a runway committee. Nothing else is in scope. We are waiting for Keswick to move ahead with their plan to see a geotex installation. Again, for TEMAC funds will be a major consideration.
On a personal note, since I live downtown with no suitable flying areas or parks, I am delighted that we have such a great field at TEMAC, where we can fly 25+ lb models and +150mph models without the fear of hiting property or people. Let's be grateful for what we have!
I will ensure your suggestions about seating are considered, but another personal reaction is that we need to consider climate and it's effects.
Simon
Hi Simon,
First of all as I mentioned we are grateful but I am sure you also strive to improve in any field. If the issue is funds why don't we raise it and check if the members agree to fund any improvements beyond the current plans that are covered by the 2013 annual fees.
I am sure that we will not get a simple yes or no answer, one option will be that some will agree to contribute more than others and if this will be enough than we are good to go.
On the other hand if the majority are not interested in doing any improvement and no one is in interested in contributing to the effort the answer is simple and no one (including my self - unfortunately ):.. ) should complain.
-I think a simple poll following a short email to all members can answer this, the only question will be if anyone has a rough estimate of the funds required.
Thanks again,
Bobby
I am sure that every member has a few ideas on how to improve the field.
Ideas are great, but implementation usually involves a lot more time, work and expense than most imagine.
A simple suggestion of buying canopies for $60 sounds great, but then suggesting we need some kind of shed, this overlooks the fact that this would probably cost more than $1,000., hours of work for the board, and the need to prepare some type of foundation to secure the shed, and then we'd have to deal with the issue of security, upkeep and cleaning. We'd also have to raise the money, which could take weeks or months, and would involve additional hours of work for bookkeeping and deposits.
As far as I'm concerned, I would rather have members put forth to the board complete plans to make improvements, for which those members will take responsibility for the implementation.
We all want improvements.
TEMAC is a non-profit organization, and all board members are essentially elected volunteers.
This is a great board and they are doing all they can.
If anybody has any field improvement ideas, please don't just volunteer the ideas; volunteer the comprehensive implementation.
Quote from: Bobmic on May 31, 2013, 10:46:29 AM
the only question will be if anyone has a rough estimate of the funds required.
Thanks again,
Bobby
Bobby - why don't you prepare a quote for the whole project, like Michael has suggested? Tell us how much is needed.
I like building and flying RC aircraft. I have a day-job that takes considerable dedication and effort. I volunteer my time, with the rest of the Board, to help keep TEMAC going (secure the field, ensure people are safe, ensure we have tables, maintain the field, train new members, organise fun flies, run winter workshops, administer a race series, run a build class, provide a forum.) We do our best, and we do a lot.
If you have time, why not come on board and be our Field Manager?
What can YOU do to help TEMAC?
Oh, and one other point - the more money we have to spend on repairs, the less we have for improvements. That includes cars getting stuck in soft ground, damaging it for other club members!!!
I would rather keep the membership fees low and just sit in the van have a cold water and watch you guys sweat it out. :-X
The suggestions are all valid, but it comes down to cost and as Michael stated, then we need a shed or the local kids are going to have a field day!
Simon - I asked a question as a committee was assigned and I don't think I have asked you to do anything specific.
Since there were a number of posts asking different things, a committee was formed to try and answer part of the questions raised and was hoping to hear back from the committee assigned. I understand that this is a hot topic that some take personally and am not sure why.
- Do I need to think twice before I ask any field related question? I don't think I had any complaints I am not sure where your last answer came from.
The only "suggestion" I had was to ask a question if members are willing to contribute as I heard from a few that they were. I don't see any point in even trying to get a quote or put together any plans if no one is interested and this is why I have "suggested" to ask the members.
As for helping out, unfortunately between my job, commute and other commitments I can not be at the field on Wednesdays however I didn't have any issue in helping out over the weekends - and will be happy to help in the future.
Michael - I fully understand the implications of adding a shed etc. this is why I asked if we can / are allowed to do something else, if we are not than that's fine, but at least I have asked ...
The bottom line is that I have asked a question, and did not ask anyone to do anything nor implying that I don't agree with anyone or don't appreciate the board and I really did not expect this response.
Quote from: sihinch on May 31, 2013, 12:16:20 PM
Oh, and one other point - the more money we have to spend on repairs, the less we have for improvements. That includes cars getting stuck in soft ground, damaging it for other club members!!!
...I suggest you don't go there, during the winter I have never entered and during the cleanup I tried my best to get the gravel flat.
Yesterday when I came (and was not the first car there) I didn't - expect that I will have a problem getting out.
Unfortunately I did not expect this one from you
Bobby, none of the responses are harsh.
Read them again and pretend the person saying those words is smiling, and talking softly.
It'll come across better. :)
Anyway, everyone should be prepared for higher membership fees next year.
;D
Quote from: Michael on May 31, 2013, 02:47:02 PM
Bobby, none of the responses are harsh.
Read them again and pretend the person saying those words is smiling, and talking softly.
It'll come across better. :)
This is what I like to hear ::)
Thank you Michael !
;D :D ;) :) 8)
I promise to use more smileys!
I was speaking to Keswick member and they are planning to install the runway at the end of this week. Not sure how that will go with the rain at the end of the week.
I just heard Keswick installed their fabric runway on Sunday
Quote from: akabek on June 10, 2013, 10:16:02 PM
I just heard Keswick installed their fabric runway on Sunday
Hi akebek,
This is great news! I look forward to visiting Keswick soon and having a first hand look.
Unfortunately TEMAC has neither the resources or logistics in place to install a similar runway in the near future. Perhaps if more members vocalized a keen interest that would expedite the process, and runway improvements would have a higher ranking on the "to do" list.
Quote from: Finnigan
Unfortunately TEMAC has neither the resources or logistics in place to install a similar runway in the near future. Perhaps if more members vocalized a keen interest that would expedite the process, and runway improvements would have a higher ranking on the "to do" list.
Possibly there should be a $200 increase in membership dues to help offset the costs involved ...
I find it interesting that some people are making comment about our resources and priorities.
Is there a new section of the Board or new Committees that I don't know about? :)
And I can assure you that "if more members vocalized a keen interest" our process (for reviewing the runway) would not be affected. We have a plan in place (to review options) as a result of the interest already shown.
I spoke to a member of the Keswick club today and they were unsure how the runway was installed. The true test will be in a month or two. From my understanding if the grass below is the runway is not dead or removed prior to installing the runway it will not stay flat for long. I would wait a few weeks before passing judgement as to weather it is a worth while expense.
Sorry,
Rick, I'm happy to see you engaged in discussion about club improvement.
This has been a bit of a touchy subject and I think that it is important that we note if we are posting an opinion or a fact. Do you know for certain that it is necessary to remove grass. I had not heard that before.
Thanks,
Ken
Quote from: Skyking on June 14, 2013, 12:52:02 PM
Sorry,
I didn't mean to submit the last post until I had added a comment.
Rick, I'm happy to see you engaged in discussion about club improvement.
This has been a bit of a touchy subject and I think that it is important that we note if we are posting an opinion or a fact. Do you know for certain that it is necessary to remove grass. I had not heard that before.
Thanks,
Ken
I will not claim to be an expert on the subject. From what I heard another field in the GTA installed the same runway material and they either did not kill the grass or remove it. A few weeks later the landing strip became bumpy due the grass underneath. I do not think removing the grass is a must but it you do not prepare the base properly the mesh material will shrink and mirror what is below it. To get a nice runway the ground needs to be flat, compressed and not shift. I have not been at Temac long so I do not know how the different seasons effect our runway and it regular maintenance is required for our field. If the runway experiences erosion it may be better offer leaving it with grass or you would have to remove the fabric and repair the base frequently.
I am all for a nice flat runway but only if it makes sense. I would wait to see how the Keswick field turns out as an example and also find out what they did to prep the field.
My understanding of this astroturf-like "runway material" is that it's a good option for clubs that are in very dry climates that can't grow grass. I believe Michael contacted one of the first clubs using it a while back to find out more, and their response was something like, "It's not as good as grass. If your club can grow grass why would you want this?" Also, if we killed the grass at TEMAC and put one of these tarps down instead, we wouldn't be able to use brakes (and our models would need brakes) because it rips the fabric. In short, we would need much more land.
For any of you who haven't flown at some of the older clubs like Oakville or Kingston, smooth fields are fun and everything but you need a VERY long landing area. I use about 40% more runway at Kingston than I do at TEMAC to land larger planes.
I think field improvement is a worthy cause. Oakville has golf fairway-like grass that's hard and smooth. Kingston is almost golf green-like grass that's even harder and smoother. I know the TEMAC field can be a bit bumpy (specially in the runway extension area), but it gets better every year and will continue to.
If there are any grass experts in the club it would be great to hear from you. Personally, I'd like to hear a non-tarp conversation about improving the field at TEMAC. i.e., how do you tend smooth grass? How often do you mow/roll/fertilize/water? What are the options? What are the costs? How do you strike the right balance between using the field and growing amazing grass? How much can we affect our grass given that we can't water it? How practical are any of these options in light of being on farm land?
Ben
Quote from: bfeist on June 14, 2013, 02:00:45 PM
how do you tend smooth grass? How often do you roll? What are the options? What are the costs? How do you strike the right balance between using the field and growing amazing grass? How much can we affect our grass given that we can't water it?
;D
Some great quotes, Ben! I like your thinking!!! 8)
I would have to agree with the comments above. Our field may not be a good fit for a geotextile runway.
Do we have any connections with the clubs that do have a nice grass field to pick their brian? Maybe we need to use a different grass seed/fertilizer.
Quote from: bfeist on June 14, 2013, 02:00:45 PM
My understanding of this astroturf-like "runway material" is that it's a good option for clubs that are in very dry climates that can't grow grass. I believe Michael contacted one of the first clubs using it a while back to find out more, and their response was something like, "It's not as good as grass. If your club can grow grass why would you want this?" Also, if we killed the grass at TEMAC and put one of these tarps down instead, we wouldn't be able to use brakes (and our models would need brakes) because it rips the fabric. In short, we would need much more land.
For any of you who haven't flown at some of the older clubs like Oakville or Kingston, smooth fields are fun and everything but you need a VERY long landing area. I use about 40% more runway at Kingston than I do at TEMAC to land larger planes.
Regarding grass vs. geotex, I would agree, grass would in fact be better. But all grass isn't created equal. it really depends on the condition of the runway.
Geotex is commonly used as a cheap alternative to create a semi-permanent, quick solution.
As far as issues with very smooth grass runways such as Kingston, I suppose it's a question of a lesser of two evils.
Longer stopping distances VS. nose-overs, rough taxiing/take-offs which may damage some models, and the issue of some models not able to take-off altogether.
And with a smooth runway, don't forget the added benefit of those nice scale take-offs which even smaller models can enjoy :)
If you were to ask Kingston/Oakville members if they would be willing to swap their runway for ours, I doubt you would get many affirmative responses.
There would be some work involved in putting together the necessary resources and executing a plan to effect real change, having a review committee come back in 6 months to tell us what we already knew is not a solution.
Someone at the top would do well if they were to grab the reigns and lead.
Quote from: Finnigan on June 14, 2013, 08:40:22 PM
Regarding grass vs. geotex, I would agree, grass would in fact be better. But all grass isn't created equal. it really depends on the condition of the runway.
Geotex is commonly used as a cheap alternative to create a semi-permanent, quick solution.
As far as issues with very smooth grass runways such as Kingston, I suppose it's a question of a lesser of two evils.
Longer stopping distances VS. nose-overs, rough taxiing/take-offs which may damage some models, and the issue of some models not able to take-off altogether.
And with a smooth runway, don't forget the added benefit of those nice scale take-offs which even smaller models can enjoy :)
If you were to ask Kingston/Oakville members if they would be willing to swap their runway for ours, I doubt you would get many affirmative responses.
There would be some work involved in putting together the necessary resources and executing a plan to effect real change, having a review committee come back in 6 months to tell us what we already knew is not a solution.
Someone at the top would do well if they were to grab the reigns and lead.
I think the Kingston/Oakville guys definitely love their fields, but the point is that they are both grass, not geotex. They are also several times larger than TEMAC so they get to enjoy both, Longer stopping distances and fewer nose-overs.
The TEMAC field is improving every year. I don't think there's a need for the leadership to "grab the reigns" here. The club already organizes spring field maintenance and tends the field throughout the year. We have a fantastic field, a fun loving and positive membership, and leaders who already volunteer lots of time to make this the greatest RC club in the GTA.
I believe this all started because a few members were interested in investigating geotex, i.e. kill the grass in order to have a smooth runway for small models. I've suggested above that instead of killing the grass, members interested in improving the field investigate field improvement rather than field replacement. Kingston/Oakville are obviously doing something right, but I suspect smoothness has to do with the number of years a field is tended more than anything else. That's why I'm happy to enjoy our naturally improving field each year without having to take any drastic measures.
Ben
Quote from: Finnigan on June 14, 2013, 08:40:22 PM
Someone at the top would do well if they were to grab the reigns and lead.
TEMAC is always looking for hard-working volunteers to take a leadership role at TEMAC.
Are you a member of TEMAC?
I was flying at Oakville last weekend and it's no smoother than TEMAC. In fact, flying there is worse because of all the trees growing up around it, and they're not allowed to chop them down. Kingston is smooth because (I think) its just a very thin layer (maybe 1") of soil over flat rock of the Canadian Shield, AND they've been there for over 40 years. When we fly there each year it's usually during a hot period and the grass that's cut short is usually quite dry.
The old Richmond hill field was the best grass field I've ever flown at. It was prepared by a sod farmer prior to planting grass seed, I believe. TEMAC was created very quickly from a VERY roughly plowed farmers field with nothing more than a section of chain link fence towed behind a pick-up. Considering it's humble beginnings, I think it's fantastic. Apparently some of the newcomers to the club can't appreciate that.
How to make it better? I don't know. I bet the best way is to till it up, add a few inches of fine topsoil, seed, and wait a couple of years without use. I'm sure nobody wants to do that, so perhaps the next best option is to roll more regularly... but I'm not sure.
Robert
I used to be an expert on grass and boy did I roll regularly!
I knew it!!!!
Quote from: Ededge2002 on June 15, 2013, 12:12:00 AM
I used to be an expert on grass and boy did I roll regularly!
One-handed?
Quote from: Michael on June 14, 2013, 10:42:10 PM
Quote from: Finnigan on June 14, 2013, 08:40:22 PM
Someone at the top would do well if they were to grab the reigns and lead.
TEMAC is always looking for hard-working volunteers to take a leadership role at TEMAC.
Are you a member of TEMAC?
I am a recent addition to the club and was encouraged to add my voice on this forum after being approached by a handful of members regarding the condition of the field. I also spoke with what seemed to be senior members who acknowledged issues did exist and were receptive to the idea of moving forward with changes.
As far as volunteering I would certainly consider it as long as there is a commitment and plan of action in place from the President/VP etc, What would you need me to do?
Quote from: bfeist on June 14, 2013, 10:00:20 PM
The TEMAC field is improving every year.
I know there was an extension made in the past, but can you qualify this? Has this been measured in some way, or is it something you feel "naturally" happens over time?
I suppose if the club really wanted to, one e-mail over to the Kingston club about their yearly maintenance regime (and initial condition/preparation) would remove all speculation regarding the "secret sauce" of how to acquire a smooth runway.
Quote from: Finnigan on June 17, 2013, 07:45:04 PM
Quote from: bfeist on June 14, 2013, 10:00:20 PM
The TEMAC field is improving every year.
I know there was an extension made in the past, but can you qualify this? Has this been measured in some way, or is it something you feel "naturally" happens over time?
I suppose if the club really wanted to, one e-mail over to the Kingston club about their yearly maintenance regime (and initial condition/preparation) would remove all speculation regarding the "secret sauce" of how to acquire a smooth runway.
Qualify it? I've been a member since the club started. That first year wheels wouldn't work at all, you had to belly-land. Each year the field has gotten better. Are you looking for some kind of scientific data or something?
I suggest you go back to read Piker's Reply #29. He put this topic to bed.
Ben
Quote"I am a recent addition to the club"
Where did you fly previously that had a glass runway to suit your needs?
Quote"was encouraged to add my voice on this forum after being approached by a handful of members regarding the condition of the field."
I didn't vote for you.
Quote" I also spoke with what seemed to be senior members who acknowledged issues did exist and were receptive to the idea of moving forward with changes."
Who did you speak to? ANY members of the board?
Quote"I know there was an extension made in the past, but can you qualify this? Has this been measured in some way, or is it something you feel "naturally" happens over time?"
The addition to the field HAS improved even this year over last. Had you been a member you might have even noticed.
Let me just be blunt.
Did someone force you to join?
I fly a lot of flights and a variety of airframes at the TEMAC field. Some with landing gear some without. The grass is great and suits my needs. I fly some very high performance and quality airplanes and would never think twice about landing them on our field.
Please take the time to post some photos of your lawn so we can have something to aspire to.
Finnegan, you haven't the faintest idea of what you are talking about. Your posts are a Hodge-Podge of pseudo facts and assumption gleaned from reading other posts. Heck you're not even a member of the club. Why don't you toddle off and peddle your drivel on some other post. Better yet meet me at the field on Wednesday and we'll show you what little you actually know.
Name all the grass fields you fly off and what models you fly? Name the people you met who find our field so difficult to handle?
Besides we like our field just the way it is. We are training students from 11 years to much older and all are doing great on the field. Anyone who has difficulty with our field may need to see our instructors for some remedial instruction on take offs and landing.
We certainly don't need any interference from some outsider whose biggest claim to fame is BS!
Jack Higgins.
Some valid and interesting opinions are being shared here. And some that seem confused and contradictory.
My one comment would be to remind everyone that the Board has commissioned a committee to gather options and facts relating to runway improvement.
There are always pros and cons, and costs associated with improvement. But we are fully committed to improving the TEMAC runway. The only question is "what is our best option?"
Quote from: Finnigan on June 17, 2013, 07:28:22 PM
Quote from: Michael on June 14, 2013, 10:42:10 PM
Quote from: Finnigan on June 14, 2013, 08:40:22 PM
Someone at the top would do well if they were to grab the reigns and lead.
TEMAC is always looking for hard-working volunteers to take a leadership role at TEMAC.
Are you a member of TEMAC?
I am a recent addition to the club and was encouraged to add my voice on this forum after being approached by a handful of members regarding the condition of the field. I also spoke with what seemed to be senior members who acknowledged issues did exist and were receptive to the idea of moving forward with changes.
As far as volunteering I would certainly consider it as long as there is a commitment and plan of action in place from the President/VP etc, What would you need me to do?
1.
My membership list must be out of date.
I have no CL White on my list.
Please call me with your membership information.
Michael
647-300-7646
2.
You say you were approached "by a handful of members regarding the condition of the field" encouraging you to to discuss this matter.
I'm concerned that some members would be unwilling to participate in such a discussion themselves, or to speak up at any of our meetings, or to directly approach any of the board members. Can you tell me who these members are?
3.
You say you would consider volunteering as long as "there is a commitment and plan of action."
Please consider that
TEMAC has never been able to confirm the longevity of our lease beyond any current season, for various economic reasons concerning the farmer from whom we lease. Any member who has attended any of our meetings should know of this. What kind of commitment or plan would you suggest based on this specific parameter?
Quote from: Finnigan on June 17, 2013, 07:28:22 PM
What would you need me to do?
Step 1: Call me.
647-300-7646
I'm waiting.
"Do not feed the troll." I've seen this movie before. In fact, I am wondering if it might be the same troll. Michael, any thoughts?