Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club Forum

Toronto Electric Model Aviation Club (TEMAC) => Building / Construction => Topic started by: Ededge2002 on February 06, 2014, 11:50:17 PM

Title: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 06, 2014, 11:50:17 PM
This will be a build thread of my latest project a Yuri Models X-Plane.  The model is a full carbon molded Hotliner/sport model and there isn't any "construction" left to do.  Its more of an assembly thread really but I will be going over the components ive chosen and why along with how the pieces are installed.  There are a few goals I have for this plane but the main point is to go quickly AND quietly.  Instead of a tiny screaming prop I will be using a geared motor and a larger high pitch slower turning prop.  This is a way the power limited class F5D racers have been using to gain a little more efficiency over the small prop setups.

http://yuricomposites.com/ (http://yuricomposites.com/)

This video is an example of the of sound of the two different setups.

http://youtu.be/8-Kr77lZ90c (http://youtu.be/8-Kr77lZ90c)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: piker on February 07, 2014, 09:36:08 AM
Very cool, Ed.  I'm looking forward to learning more about this new approach to speed.  But you know the routine.  We need pictures  :)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on February 07, 2014, 09:58:50 AM
Thanks so much for doing this Ed.  I cant wait to learn from your mistakes!  ;D
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: battlestu on February 07, 2014, 11:39:45 AM
Quote from: piker on February 07, 2014, 09:36:08 AM
Very cool, Ed.  I'm looking forward to learning more about this new approach to speed.  But you know the routine.  We need pictures  :)

agreed pictures with beer bottles are need  ;D
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 07, 2014, 12:19:38 PM
There will be photos I have an appointment to get waxed this afternoon!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: battlestu on February 07, 2014, 12:38:07 PM
Quote from: Ededge2002 on February 07, 2014, 12:19:38 PM
There will be photos I have an appointment to get waxed this afternoon!

Please say that is a typo and you mean to say "There will be photos I have an appointment to get the plane waxed this afternoon!"
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: thehaze on February 07, 2014, 02:34:00 PM
 :o
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 07, 2014, 05:02:42 PM
Airframe and the equipment list.

Initial empty airframe weight is 13.8oz(392g) with a wingspan of 52"(1320mm)

Neu 1115/1.5D(3500kv)
Kontronic KPG27 5.2:1 gearbox
Georgi Mirov GM 10 X 23 F5D carbon folding prop with 30mm spinner
Castle Creations ICE LITE 100 esc
Hyperion DS09 servos (metal gear for flaps carbon poly for remainder)
Castle Creations 10 amp bec
Futaba R617FS receiver
ThunderPower 5S 1800mA 45C battery
undecided RX battery power (likely 2s LiFe)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 07, 2014, 05:14:19 PM
Firewall installation.

I used two layers of 2.5mm G10 to make the firewall.  Time consuming to make the pieces by hand but im happy with the end result.  Glued in with 30minute epoxy thickened with ground fiberglass(there was lots of it made making the firewall!). 
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 07, 2014, 05:40:57 PM
Motor/Esc assembled and cooling hole cut in fuse above Esc. Theory here is that the air will go in the hole and exit out behind the spinner.  A little graph with an actual test of the motor/prop combo I have measured with a pitot tube and data logger to give an idea of where this is going.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on February 07, 2014, 11:51:14 PM
Love this thread! Thank you. Offers great insight in to specifying a high-performance power system and some build techniques and little quirks that you need to watch for.

2 questions - can you explain some more about how you sized the diameter of the firewall and then how you went on to cut the fuse length?

And secondly do you have any more details on the ESC cooling theory? Like, does it really work?

Cheers
S
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 08, 2014, 12:46:44 AM
Quote from: sihinch on February 07, 2014, 11:51:14 PM

2 questions - can you explain some more about how you sized the diameter of the firewall and then how you went on to cut the fuse length?

And secondly do you have any more details on the ESC cooling theory? Like, does it really work?

S

Im using a 30mm spinner and no fuse portion was removed as the minimum diameter is 30mm.

I used a 30mm spinner and pushed it up inside the nose cone of the fuse and measured how far back this sat from the lip of the nose.  I measured the motor (or in this case gearbox) output shaft length and figured the maximum back I could position it and still have the required amount of the shaft sticking out.  I took the numbers and made a drawing showing the thickness of the firewall and the inside diameter of the lip of the fuse nose and mapped out the taper.  I made a little wood template the diameter that I had calculated would put the motor the right distance back and tried it.  It was very close.  I made the G10 pieces a TINY bit smaller so If anything I could position the spinner slightly further back on the shaft if any fudging was required.  More time figuring it out and making the firewall than you would think looking at two little pieces of plastic!

Cooling?
I did a LOT of reading about this and the common thing encountered when an esc went up in flames was that regardless the vents the smoke and soot usualy came out the back of the spinner with burn marks going forward in the fuse to this point.  The thinking is that with bernoulli's principle the air going around the nose of the plane accelerates the airflow developing a low pressure area.  Further back on the fuse the airflow should be reattaching to the fuse slowing the air and making a high pressure area.  This leads to the thinking that the air will enter the fuse at the high pressure area and proceed to the forward low pressure area.  I will admit this is ALL experimental!  The other thing in play here is how much drag is worth compared to how much cooling??  This will be a two minute maximum cooling situation so there will be no time to heat soak much and the system Im using is hopefully not operating over its capacity at approximately 75amps.  I can after all add more holes if needed but my Enigma is set up this way and nothing is hot at all in there.

(sorry I tried to explain it as well and as briefly as I could.)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on February 08, 2014, 09:27:50 AM
Thanks Ed. I think I get it.

So how are you cutting the carbon? What tool are you using? I see you are using masking tape to reduce splinters or wandering of cuttitng tool, is that right?
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: piker on February 08, 2014, 01:40:19 PM
That's a hot looking plane!  Thanks for all the details.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 08, 2014, 11:55:42 PM
Installed a couple of control horns tonight....
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Papa on February 09, 2014, 09:52:54 AM
Your cooling system is similar to what I plan to do on the NorthStar. Cool air comes in on the top of the fuselage behind the battery hatch and exits through a low pressure area in the nose. I would use ducted air to ensure it gets to the ESC's and battery I won't do it until after the maidens in case cooling is not required.

Jack.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Wildmieze on February 09, 2014, 10:39:06 AM
It's really impressive what you build there!  :o ;D
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 09, 2014, 01:07:15 PM
Quote from: Wildmieze on February 09, 2014, 10:39:06 AM
It's really impressive what you build there!  :o ;D

Thank you but I can not take the credit for the fabrication of the airframe.  It is a molded airframe hand made buy a guy in the US.  The little pieces and hardware to put it together are ALL custom though and take a considerable amount of time and thinking to modify.  Sometimes a clevis isn't just a clevis!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 09, 2014, 08:44:11 PM
Top drive servos:

Some pictures of my top drive servo install.  Lots of little work.  Lots of head scratching.  Lots of squinting.  Lots of SATISFACTION!

The hinges are built into the wing of this plane and all surfaces on the wing are hinged at the bottom.  Wipers close the gap and leave a very low drag shape despite aileron/flap deflection.  The goal of this type of linkage is to limit the amount of drag we add with linkages hanging out in the breeze.  Slots are cut in the top of the wing trailing edge to pass through the links to the open bays below.  The flap or aileron has its wiper trimmed to clear the link and a slot is cut for the control horn.  As shown in the previous post the links have to be totally modified with an arc cut to clear the servo and the threaded portion cut back slightly.  The threaded piece less than 1/2" long is soldered into one of the links so it wont vibrate out and the other will be locked with ca.  The linkage is VERY short and direct leaving almost no play.  The horns are glued inside the moving surface and also a web is built up around the top of the surface.  The servos have a very short horn and are mounted so they push surfaces down.  The wires will be run inside and soldered to a single plug later but I taped the covers on to give the idea of how clean this ends up being.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on February 09, 2014, 08:50:40 PM
Looks incredibly intricate and very precise.

Congrats Ed.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Papa on February 10, 2014, 08:13:17 AM
Very clean and neat!

Jack.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 19, 2014, 10:22:08 PM
Elevator servo install:

I soldered more wire to the servo to make it reach the area the RX will be and made up the horn for the elevator.  2.5mm G10 again glued to both surfaces with a filet inside.  The pushrod is very short and when you position the servo provides a straight line to the horn.  Very solid and no play can be detected.  I used a threaded pushrod then once set up I flowed in some thin CA on the threads to make it locked.  The stabilizer is removable with just two screws.

I took some time and installed the motor and esc that was previously soldered together and installed the prop...  Temptation took over and I checked everything over a second time and decided to do a little motor run with 4S.  The data log is attached but for those unaware the Castle Ice series are known to show 10% or so higher amp readings than actual. 

(1040Watts 75.7Amps 13.7Volts 9395Rpm at prop)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on February 26, 2014, 10:02:25 PM
As my plane is completed and Simon was impressed with my build he asked me to build his.  He dropped the plane and equipment off tonight and I went through the parts in preparation. 

http://youtu.be/nZlDyQF60cM (http://youtu.be/nZlDyQF60cM)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on February 26, 2014, 10:16:51 PM
Oh god, I'm turned on!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: battlestu on February 26, 2014, 10:39:23 PM
Simon please say it's the plane getting you worked up  :o

And Ed be careful not to attach the prop yet .... Little Ed will be thankful
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Frank v B on February 26, 2014, 10:57:09 PM
Back to the cooling issue. 
On keel sailboats the dorade cooling vents are at the front of the boat and face backward, not forward to suck out the cabin air.  Air inside a boat always flows from the back (main entrance hatch) to the front of the boat even when you are sailing into the wind.  I guess the same thing with a plane.  Hard to misinterpret the direction of the airflow when the smoke goes forward.

Using this logic the vents on a plane should be at the front of the nose with the opening face backwards, not forward.

Yes Andy, I'll shut up now. :D

Frank
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Andy Hoffer on February 27, 2014, 08:17:52 AM
Gee!  How did I get involved in this thread???!!  :D
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: piker on February 27, 2014, 09:51:42 AM
Ooooooo... I'm looking forward to THIS build thread  :-*
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: battlestu on February 27, 2014, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: Andy Hoffer on February 27, 2014, 08:17:52 AM
Gee!  How did I get involved in this thread???!!  :D

how can you not comment on this :)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Andy Hoffer on February 27, 2014, 06:24:21 PM
Quote from: sihinch on February 26, 2014, 10:16:51 PM
Oh god, I'm turned on!

Dear Lesley,

How to put this gently ....

Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Frank v B on February 27, 2014, 09:40:08 PM
re: Andy's  Gee!  How did I get involved in this thread???!!  :D


Pre-emptive strike. 8)  Suffer, buddy! ;D

Frank
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 03, 2014, 05:20:20 PM
A few photos of the progress on Simon's plane.  Slow and steady work but at least the figuring out how to do it part is done.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 04, 2014, 08:44:00 AM
Just some dry glue.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on March 04, 2014, 09:42:07 AM
I'm so excited, I just can't hide it......
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 04, 2014, 09:43:52 AM
Yep dry glue can have the same affect on me sometimes!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 07, 2014, 11:36:18 PM
My batteries arrived today at the Zoom Room!  Some soldering and figuring out how to arrange them to make them easiest to install/remove.  Oh and a little run once I charged them...

yep that says:

17.1V @ 114A 1944W and 10906prop rpm(56,711 motor rpm)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: battlestu on March 08, 2014, 09:16:38 AM
Impressive, most impressive
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on March 08, 2014, 05:32:36 PM
Nearly 2000watts! In a slippery aeroplane!  Genius!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: piker on March 08, 2014, 06:03:35 PM
Mad Genius
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 08, 2014, 06:18:16 PM
Do you think it will be enough power?

1944W / 2.5Lbs = 777W/lb

So that's the number of the beast plus 1's across the board!

Holding the model static at half power vertically (approximately 500W) the model wants to climb away from its weight.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Papa on March 08, 2014, 06:26:17 PM
I can just see Ed's first landing.

A gentle turn on to final at Stouffville Road followed by a leisurely touch down around Buttonville!

LOL.

Jack.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 08, 2014, 06:49:20 PM
Oh Jack that's what these are for!

Im possibly going to try them tomorrow!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: battlestu on March 08, 2014, 09:31:15 PM
Thanks for the warning ... I'll be listening for the sonic boom  ;D
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on March 09, 2014, 12:29:56 AM
Have the RCAF been warned?
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Frank v B on March 09, 2014, 09:38:44 AM
Ed,

What is the effect of a carbon airplane cracking the sound barrier?  You must be getting close!
Looks great.
Why not tweak it to make it an even 2000 watts.  1944 sounds too accidental.
The Kilowatt Brothers* are at it again.  ;D

Hey Piker, I remember my first year with electrics at the AGM at the School Board building at York Mills and Yonge someone achieved an astronomical 150 watts per pound in a model airplane.  Then he got into his Model T and left. :D

Frank

* Ed and Ben
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 09, 2014, 05:12:37 PM
OK OK the flight... ITS FAST! launch was a non event would have liked a little rudder but lol it was up up and away like nothing and started tracking straight in just a couple seconds. I could tell right off that it was stinking fast as at low power it was making up good ground. A couple clicks of up trim and a couple of right and it was solid. I did have it slightly nose heavy at 48mm. Prop wasn't folding when I cut the power and I need to work on the expo on the triple rates I set but very solid in straight lines. Took a lot of clicks of down to get the landing mode figured and it still balloons up too much for my liking when engaged. once settled into the landing mode though it slows like a dream with a nice sink rate. I don't know if I even flared much on the landing it came in so smooth and slid on the snow.

Very happy but a couple details to work on. Cant wait to fly it again!

Did I say its FAST?
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Papa on March 09, 2014, 05:41:29 PM
I'm glad, it would have been a long trek to Buttonville!

Are you taking it to the Pilot's Meeting?

Jack.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: thehaze on March 09, 2014, 05:49:46 PM
Congrats on the successful maiden! Any video of this event?

Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: piker on March 09, 2014, 09:32:32 PM
Way to go, Ed!  And a good day for it too!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 10, 2014, 12:28:34 PM
If there was interest I could bring it to the meeting.

I did take a video but I used this app that has a fixed focal point and during the flight I received a text message causing my phone to crash. I have the video but have not been able to upload or transfer it out.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: sihinch on March 10, 2014, 12:40:39 PM
If there's interest? If there's bloomin' interest?  I should say so!

YES! BRING IT!
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on March 10, 2014, 03:25:32 PM
I fixed the video!  Play loud enough you can almost feel the speed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdxMQeXqOl4&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdxMQeXqOl4&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: battlestu on March 10, 2014, 05:42:33 PM
Quote from: sihinch on March 10, 2014, 12:40:39 PM
If there's interest? If there's bloomin' interest?  I should say so!

YES! BRING IT!

I would love to get a closer look at it
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Andy Hoffer on June 01, 2014, 10:09:26 AM
Hi Ed:


So very sorry about the demise of your X-Plane yesterday.  It was a magnificent plane and your build was fantastic, to say nothing of the awesome skill with which you flew it.  Any idea what failed in flight? :'(


Feel better soon.


Andy



Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: bfeist on June 01, 2014, 04:17:15 PM
Quote from: Andy Hoffer on June 01, 2014, 10:09:26 AM
Hi Ed:


So very sorry about the demise of your X-Plane yesterday.  It was a magnificent plane and your build was fantastic, to say nothing of the awesome skill with which you flew it.  Any idea what failed in flight? :'(



Noooo! What happened?
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on June 01, 2014, 07:45:01 PM
Thanks Andy and yes Ben my X-Plane is a little more of an ex plane.

I've gone over everything and haven't found any solid reason for the crash. I was flying away from myself low and to the south at full speed. I climbed a little and did a roll then leveled off and intended to cut the power and climb under glide. The plane did what appeared to be a aileron/elevator snap roll followed by a brief pause then another.  It was beyond the south tree line already and I had a good line of sight and think I heard it hit the ground +300m away... When I found it it was stuck straight into the hard field to past the wing root.

I have two possible causes at this point:

I had both antennas pointing back in what was to be a 90° V but the wind and handling had them pointing almost straight back. My TX antenna was laying horizontal pointing to the right. So all antennas were pointed at each other and the lowest strength point. Also at the end of the field there is a six row electrical fence (not on fortunately) that may have caused some interference with the signal as I passed over it.  I did turn my TX toward the plane in an effort to reconnect and that may have been the pause before the second snap. The plane should have gone into fail safe though and I have tested the receiver and the fail safes are still set.

The second suspect is the castle 10 amp bec. There have been reports of them suddenly hanging up without warning and then returning to normal operation. 

The investigation continues.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: wollins on June 01, 2014, 11:52:35 PM
Crap!  I feel for ya my friend. When you lose a mouldie like this it just sickens you on so many levels.  I guess a small consolation is that nobody got hurt. These "missiles" can do lethal damage if they get loose.

As you know, there was/is so much debate on the Xplane thread (and other high performance threads) about the best source for receiver power that there seems to be no general consensus as to which is the most reliable. 

Personally I've always relied on my Esc's internal Bec believe it or not in my high performance birds (Bandit, Scorpion, Wasp, Swist) and have never had an issue in that regard. However at the amp draws we're pulling these days I'm now leaning towards a separate receiver pack.  Another alternative I've researched is Scorpion's "Back Up Guard". (http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalog/accessories/backup_guard/S_Backup_Guard/)  These options are a pain cause its one more thing that we have to stuff into an already cramped space but you do what you have to. 

Anyways, I know how much research and effort you put into this one (not to mention expense) and I hope your investigation as to the cause is successful.

Colin   
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: pmackenzie on June 03, 2014, 09:32:12 PM
A few of thoughts about this:

-I hate to ask, but is there any chance it was lost orientation? 300m is a long way out with a small model, up sun and down low.
Wouldn't take much to lose orientation for just a moment, with the inevitable result.
I have lost orientation flying DLG a lot closer when up-sun, and it takes a while and a clear head to stop moving the sticks while you figure out what way it is actually flying.
Something with a heavier loading like the X-plane would give you almost no chance to recover.

- Signal loss is a real possibility but that should have triggered your failsafe, not resulted in what sounds like a glitch.
2.4 installations are much more fussy than 72 ever was.
Most of the brands (including Futaba) now have telemetry systems available that could let you know if you are pushing your luck.

- I have read more threads about Castle BEC failures than the cheapo HK ones.
They are more sophisticated and controlled by micro-controllers, versus the simpler hardware types that HK sells.
But usually when they fail they send full battery voltage through and fry everything down stream.

- It could have been something as simple as a bad connector or cold solder joint, there are lots of single point failure modes in our models.


Pat MacKenzie


Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on June 03, 2014, 10:50:44 PM
Thanks for chiming in Pat and Colin!

I did a roll prior to the south fence line and the troubles started immediately after I leveled off from that.  I figure I was about 150m or so out at the start of the problem.  I was approaching the galvanized wire fence quickly and the troubles seemed to happen there.  As I throttled back and pulled up the plane pitched and responded very much like a elevator/aileron roll with a little bit of a long snap roll look to it.  This is all happening on the doorstep of 200mph so things happen very quickly.  I had enough time to physically turn myself and try to orient the TX antenna and achieve a better signal.  I am confident that it wasn't orientation as I could still see its direction and orientation when it went behind the trees.  I literally walked directly to the crash sight without having to search for it.  There IS the possibility that I just horsed the elevator going too fast and caused the snap roll.  I was far out and looking from the rear of the model it would have been impossible for me to gauge how hard of a pull it was.  I got off the sticks after the first out of control roll and got back on trying to avoid the ground.  Possibly that is the point where I saw it straighten out then snap again..  Pilot error COULD be to blame but it happened so fast and so far out that its very hard to tell.

So far my results are: loss of signal,  BEC failure or pilot error.  All of the above are my fault(imperfect antenna installation and TX antenna orientation, Trusted the CC-10bec that I had never heard of anyone having troubles with previously or flying beyond best sight angle to gauge the model.
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: wollins on June 04, 2014, 06:38:00 PM
Hey Ed, did you manage to at least salvage any of the gear or did you lose everything?

Colin
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: Ededge2002 on June 04, 2014, 08:24:20 PM
Motor survived as did gearbox, rx is OK with some replacement antennas but will not see super performance again,  servos all still work but the same. Castle and Thunderpower  have both been contacted for there 50% replacement cost "repair" service and started process. I had already ordered my "next step" prop for the setup and it arrived shiny and new Monday. A little salt in the wound but one less piece of the puzzle to start over with! 

Going from 10x23 pylon setup to 16x17slim super hotliner setup this time!

Do you think 1200w/lb will be enough??

(5s@200A/2.5lbs)
Title: Re: X-Plane build thread
Post by: bfeist on June 05, 2014, 10:05:27 PM
Crazy talk. That's an Enigma prop!