Hey guys, (really the board ;)) what do you all think about putting some markings on the runway? Was looking at this video and realized that they have the same runway as ours and the markings look sharp. :) Also at least a center line will help with orientation and depth perception problems?
Colin
https://youtu.be/AOylFXu0f_w
Absolutly!!!
It's on my radar and being explored.
For sure it does look cool.
Now with most of the "essential" items having been taken care of (like cleaning out the loo), time to look at these more interesting ideas. Just gotta finish reading whatever the heck Andy wrote.
Graham
Hey Graham, any more thoughts on this? It would really help those of us who have depth perception challenges! :)
Colin
We are investigating those driveway markers on either side of the runway.
You know the wire ones with the reflectors.
If we set them about 4' high that should work.
They come in green and red so which colour do you want closest?
Jack.
Do I understand right?
Markers on the sides of the runway, standing 4" tall?
Planes would hit those.
No, No not 4 inches, 4 feet.
That way you'll hear them if you hit them.
That will give you both sound and sight perspective.
Jack.
4 feet high is better.
That'll be tall enough to see to help avoid them.
Right?
You guys can scoff all you want, an intermittent line down the center of the runway is a good idea dammit! ;D
Both edges of the runway are straight and parallel. And a different colour to the green grass. Just aim for that bit.
Quote from: Michael on July 24, 2015, 06:39:04 PM
4 feet high is better.
That'll be tall enough to see to help avoid them.
Right?
I rather not focus on avoiding something while flying
When you are landing, you're not looking at the runway until you almost touch down. Surely runway markings are useful if your IN the plane, not looking at the plane?
Quote from: sihinch on July 25, 2015, 12:14:45 AM
When you are landing, you're not looking at the runway until you almost touch down. Surely runway markings are useful if your IN the plane, not looking at the plane?
agreed
Ideally you should not be focused in on the model, but taking in the whole "scene".
A high contrast centre line could help with that.
Pat MacKenzie
I find doing some low passes or touch-and-go's helpful in judging distance.
Also, the orange cones at both edges of the field are positioned along the runway centreline which I find useful in setting up the approach.
If we are thinking about runway markings, how about something like in the photo?
Graham
Don't we need to put "X" s on the runway so no full size pilot confuses it with a real one?
I shall defer to Andy
@Andy Hoffer as we have discussed this earlier.
However, if "X"'s are placed on the runway, then no other markings should exist which kind of takes the fun out of it.
Graham
Quote from: gmcnic on July 25, 2015, 11:36:43 AM
I find doing some low passes or touch-and-go's helpful in judging distance.
Also, the orange cones at both edges of the field are positioned along the runway centreline which I find useful in setting up the approach.
If we are thinking about runway markings, how about something like in the photo?
Graham
I like it!
Quote from: sihinch on July 25, 2015, 11:53:01 AM
Don't we need to put "X" s on the runway so no full size pilot confuses it with a real one?
I was wondering why there was some much pushback on this practical yet cool idea. ;) So THAT'S your real concern! Well, I'm no full size pilot but my gut tells me that a full size pilot would hardly mistake our 210' X 30' black strip for even the tiniest of full size runways. (but I too defer to Andy on this one.)
If you are flying your plane with FPV, runway marking will help you in takeoff and landing your FPV plane. :D
I also like the idea of 4 feet mark. If you extend it to become like a gate, a FPV quad racer would be delighted to have that setup ;D
Let's get a control tower too!
Quote from: wollins on July 25, 2015, 03:53:47 PM
Quote from: sihinch on July 25, 2015, 11:53:01 AM
Don't we need to put "X" s on the runway so no full size pilot confuses it with a real one?
I was wondering why there was some much pushback on this practical yet cool idea. ;) So THAT'S your real concern! Well, I'm no full size pilot but my gut tells me that a full size pilot would hardly mistake our 210' X 30' black strip for even the tiniest of full size runways. (but I too defer to Andy on this one.)
I can't find anything in the aviation regs that warrants against someone putting markings on the ground that look like a real runway. We are not a registered aerodrome or airport, so we are not listed in the directory of Canadian aerodromes (Canada Flight Supplement) and we are not shown on any flight charts, so full-scale pilots would not have any way of determining our runways specs and suitability for landing. In an emergency, a pilot eyeballs a potential landing area based on training and flight experience to determine if it's suitable. I agree with Colin that a full-scale pilot would be unlikely to mistake our 210' model runway for a full-scale runway.
Andy
Colin, I remembered last year Andre suggested to have a runway marking too.
http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,4958.0.html
A control tower? LOL
Graham,
Just requisition a white cane for Colin. The one with the red stripes. :)
Frank
Sorry Colin. It has been a tough week for me ::)
Quote from: sihinch on July 25, 2015, 05:20:49 PM
Let's get a control tower too!
Now, now Simon, let's not get all snippy now ... you're supposed to be one of the nicer guys among us, remember? ;) Besides who's gonna sit in the darn thing? ;D
I'll do it but only if I get a shirt that says air boss ;D ..or was it a mug...
Graham, I never would of thought of painting the runway white and putting black and yellow lines on it, but it does look nice. It would be a lot of work though.
Bruce
I volunteer to work in the control tower.
So....
Who exactly is volunteering to do ALL THAT PAINTING, including surface prep? And what scale will be used for the markings?!! :)
Andy
Well, since I was the one pushing for it I'll volunteer to be in that party. :) But I wasn't aware that the powers that be decided to do it? (aren't you one of the powers that be, Andy? ;) )
Two page thread summary: "Ok".
Quote from: gmcnic on July 25, 2015, 02:52:43 PM
I shall defer to Andy @Andy Hoffer as we have discussed this earlier.
However, if "X"'s are placed on the runway, then no other markings should exist which kind of takes the fun out of it.
Graham
Why would putting "X"s preclude other markings?
As I understand it the "X" mark simply tells a pilot that a runway is closed and should not be used.
They have giant lit up ones on the runway they are resurfacing at YYZ.
So I would suggest just the opposite is true, if centre lines are put in place then X's should also be added.
Because that is what Transport Canada regulations stipulate:
"7.1.1.5 Standard - When a runway or taxiway or portion thereof is permanently closed, all normal runway and taxiway markings shall be obliterated."
Temporary closures, such as you saw at CYYZ, are handled differently.
Graham
I am pleased to report that runway markings are now in place, courtesy of strafing runs by the local avian population. While not typical of full-scale aerodromes, the comprehensive array of Picasso-style artwork, generously donated by the gulls, geese and herons who frequent our airspace, will no doubt provide excellent runway alignment and depth perception guides for TEMAC pilots who may have been challenged to date by our all-black featureless Geotex runway surface. Pilots will find the random, omni-directional array of whites spots, streaks, and plops of particular value, given its similarity to our diverse landing attitudes and flying habits. Perfect landings are now assured for everyone!
Enjoy!
Andy Hoffer (on behalf of the powers that be) :D
Andy,
How do you get those animals to deposit the stuff that you are so full of?? :D
Guys: Andy is going away August 6-20. Two weeks of Andy-less bliss. Let's hope his destination is internet-free as well (Antarctica)
Frank
(who else)
Pleased to advise those pesky avian artifacts have been removed from the geotex.
Undercarriage should now be happy!
Graham
So now we can get the real markings? ;)
OK FINE .... I'LL ADMIT IT ... my take off runs are not the straightest and NO ONE can dispute that a center line helps with THAT. ::) Besides ... it looks cool guys! ;D
Colin
Well as long as you guys are sure no one will think its a real runway... from high up its possible.
CARs 301.08 section (f) states:
"No person shall
(f) at a place other than an aerodrome, knowingly display a marker, marking, light or signal that is likely to cause a person to believe that the place is an aerodrome;"
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-96-433.pdf
Sorry to be a party pooper :(
Quote from: imran13 on August 17, 2015, 10:00:55 PM
Well as long as you guys are sure no one will think its a real runway... from high up its possible.
CARs 301.08 section (f) states:
"No person shall
(f) at a place other than an aerodrome, knowingly display a marker, marking, light or signal that is likely to cause a person to believe that the place is an aerodrome;"
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-96-433.pdf
Sorry to be a party pooper :(
Refer to post #21 from a full size pilot.
I did read it, I'm just pointing out what the regs DO say. In any event, a glider could land in that short space.
Btw I'm also a full (glider) pilot ;D ;D
Look forward to seeing you all soon, after such a long absence!
A few TC definitions to ponder:
Aerodrome. Any area of land, water (including frozen surface thereof) or other supporting surface used or designed, prepared, equipped or set apart for use either in whole or in part for arrival and departure, movement or servicing of aircraft and includes any building, installations and equipment in connection therewith.
Aircraft. A machine capable of deriving support in the atmosphere from the reactions of the air.
Graham
PS- Congrats Imran on achieving your glider license! :) 8)
Quote from: wollins on August 17, 2015, 10:10:31 PM
Quote from: imran13 on August 17, 2015, 10:00:55 PM
Well as long as you guys are sure no one will think its a real runway... from high up its possible.
CARs 301.08 section (f) states:
"No person shall
(f) at a place other than an aerodrome, knowingly display a marker, marking, light or signal that is likely to cause a person to believe that the place is an aerodrome;"
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-96-433.pdf (http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-96-433.pdf)
Sorry to be a party pooper :(
Refer to post #21 from a full size pilot.
Good catch Imran. The issue then becomes whether markings on our runway would be judged "
likely to cause a person to believe that the place is an aerodrome."[/size] [/size]
It doesn't seem likely due to the small size of our runway, but this may warrant a query with Transport Canada. Andy
Frankly, it might be easier to simply install an instrument landing system tied to an on-board GPS guidance system, sort of like the advanced multicopters use. Just set it and forget it. Picture perfect landings every time. :D
Andy
Andy, will you be visiting our TEMAC aerodrome tomorrow for the fun fly?
If so, we can discuss it further.
Graham
I think, a more important topic could be the size of the TEMAC parking area. The club continues to get larger and for an event like today, more parking space is needed.
We don't need more parking space, we need members to attend early when there is lots of space.
Jack.
that's true ;D
Quote from: wollins on August 07, 2015, 11:31:34 PM
So now we can get the real markings? ;)
Thanks guys, just saw them in a recent Temac video posted. ;)
Those aren't runway markers.
Those white stripes are skid marks from my many repeated perfect landings exactly down the center of the runway.
...might just be working on a few more ideas to help Michael and others hit the centre line ;) ;)
Lights!?
Mosquito repeller - quite help so we can concentrate on landing. ;)
Arrestor wires?
Shouldn't there be crosses at each end, so that confused full size aircraft will not try to land?
I think we went through that discussion earlier in this thread.
Please have a look at replies #31, 32, 38 and 41.
We can chat next time we meet up at the field.
Graham