Piaggio P180 Avanti scratch build previously "Foam choice for a scratch build...

[Wildmieze]

Hi everybody!

About Ben, Andy and Bill, I've finally come to this forum. I am also building an Avanti and am just before the maiden.  In the Avanti Simprop is the CG located 484mm from the tail tip forward in front of the main wing. But where the CG on our model? I dont know. 

I'm curious how the Avanti continues to grow. 

Here is my first taxi test outside my flat:
Piaggio P-180 Avanti - Taxi test in the backyard

[battlestu]

welcome to the forum!... and the plane looks great!

[Wingnutz]

Hi Martin!
Welcome to TEMAC's forum! I think you are one of our first if not the first international poster! A few club members have read your thread on your Avanti (several times for me) and are really impressed. I have used several of your ideas already in my model. Can you post a link to your Piaggio build thread here? It translates into English fairly well with Google translator.
I've also realized your modelling skills are way beyond mine. I'm really impressed with the way you skinned the fuselage of your Piaggio! You and a few others who post here build museum quality models...mine look best when they're flying and some distance away!
Since I started  the Piaggio, I've been in Florida to escape our cold winter twice and out snow flying here when the weather allows it so my Piaggio model is progressing slowly. I'll post later today or tomorrow to show progress to date.
Again, welcome!

[Wildmieze]

Thank you for your warm welcome. You praise me so much that I get red cheeks! 
I have started 3 years ago to build planes with Depron. In total there are 4 ready to fly models and Piaggio, which must still learn to fly. Each aircraft was complex and difficult so I had to learn very quickly. I started with the Messerschmitt Bf 108. The Messerschmitt consisted of only four strips of wood and some Depron. Total spartan built. But she flew!
Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun

Historie - Messerschmitt BF 108 Taifun - Eigenbau aus Depron - Baubeschreibung und Maiden


The next was the Norseman. In this plane, I had already installed more wood. But she was very small.
Noorduyn Norseman UC-64

The Focke Wulf Ta 154 was my diploma. Inside were Retracts and two motors. Split flaps via one servo. Everything very compact.
Focke-Wulf Ta 154

Focke Wulf Ta 154 - Eigenbau Depron - Baubericht (self made, building report) ), Maiden, 2.Flug


And my masterpiece was then the Dornier 335 Extremely round surfaces, retractable landing gear, a pusher propeller and a tractor propeller, melted canopy, lights and so on.

Dornier 335

Dornier Do 335 Pfeil - Baubericht, Building report, scratchbuilt with Depron / Balsa, Third flight

The Avanti is in my opinion not so hard to build, but the curves of the hull make it difficult to work. Whether that keeps everything so that I have built there, is only still show. Just the landing gear will be put to the test. For the planking I used halved 3mm Depron. This I have blown with a hot wire. I came by a forum member on it. He had shown me. In the thread of the Norseman you can see that .
You say that you're slow? I am also very slowly this time. Otherwise, I was always ready at 10 weeks. This time there are five months! So everything is normal with you. 

Here is my building thread: Piaggio P-180 "Avanti"

It's all a matter of practice. My first model looked terrible. So I sold it. I loved the Messerschmitt, but I no longer flew with her and so pleased today someone else about it. Do not be so critical of yourself! 

[sihinch]

Wow, Martin! Those are amazing models. Congratulations!

[Wingnutz]

Wow, Martin! Those are amazing models. Congratulations!

They sure are! Mine won't be in Martin's league but his builds are still an inspiration!
Managed to find an hour today (after Andy and I tried to fly at ROGO in a snowstorm!) to muddle away at the Piaggio. It's the first time I've tried building a model this way and everything's a trial...with frequent errors.
I'm presently cutting the roughly shaped fuse to accommodate the front wing, main wing, battery, rudder and retracts. Right now it seems like going backwards to move forwards...
Like Martin, I've increased the size of the front and the main wing from scale...I built the saddle for the front wing at about 5 degrees positive incidence to the main wing saddle. The idea is the front wing will stall first, drop the nose (gently we hope) and present a gentle stall.
I now have to create the anhedral for the front wing which in my mind is crucial to capturing the character of the full sizer...but that's for next session

[Andy Hoffer]

... Managed to find an hour today (after Andy and I tried to fly at ROGO in a snowstorm[/b]!) ...

With a view to providing full disclosure and keeping our members from inadvertently misinterpreting the implied plural "we" and the implied qualifier "tried", I am compelled to add that "some" of us went home with nicely drained batteries after many successful ski-based flights, graciously photographed by Bill. 

Ice Man Andy

[Wingnutz]

Front wing anhedral of 7 degrees underway. With the front wing at 5+degrees incidence to the main wing and 7 degrees anhedral it's taken some more head scratching but it's too early in the day for bottle opening! Family wedding coming up and a whole pile of other stuff making it hard to find time for the Piaggio. Andy, I deserve to be called to task on my ambiguous reporting of snow flying but here?

[piker]

Hey Bill.  Is that Canard full flying?  In other words, does the whole thing rotate to control pitch, or does it have separate control surfaces?

[Wingnutz]

Rob,
As I understand it, on the full-sized Piaggio the front wing serves two purposes. In normal flight, it is a part of the aircraft's three surface lift system. The front wing or canard, the main wing and the tailplane all generate lift allowing the design to employ a main wing that looks ridiculously small for the fuse. My main wing, the canard and the horiz stab/elevator will be larger than scale.
The second function of the canard is to act as a counter to the main wing flaps. Main wing flaps are aggressive with regular flaps inboard of the nacelles and fowlers outboard. With the main wing so far back, deploying the flaps creates significant pitch down which on the Piaggio is countered by a control surface on the canard. This surface only moves down and only when the main wing flaps are deployed.
I think I've got that correct but if I haven't, I'd be happy to be corrected. I attached a three view and a photo of the canard.
I'm still debating whether I want to add a scale flap/canard system on my model.

[piker]

Yes.  That photo of the front answers my question.  The canard has separate control surfaces.  That makes things easier to build.

You mentioned that the control surfaces on the canard are only to counter the pitch effect of the flaps.  Is this true?  My understanding of canards (which is very limited) is that the elevators are on the canard.  However, after a quick Google images peak, I now see this particular aircraft has a full flying rear stab that would provide pitch control, so maybe you're right.   

BTW, while looking at pictures of the full size I was impressed with how small that main wing is!  Yikes!

[Wildmieze]

That is correct. The front wings stabilize the aircraft when the flaps of the main wings are down. The level control is carried out via the tail. The fact that each wing generates lift, the main wing can be so small. I am also impressed that the main wing is so narrow. The Avanti is not a canard.

[Wingnutz]

Hi Martin,
Good to have you on the thread! It's an honour to have such an accomplished modeller posting!
I too have read that the Piaggio Avanti is not really a canard. I've also found the Avanti listed as a canard.
Is it because front wing, main wing and horizontal stabilizer all lift that the Piaggio is not a canard?
Forgive me if you've already considered this but would building a small simple model of your larger model help to get the centre of gravity (focus) in the correct location? When my model is closer to completion, I'm going to try the model of a model approach to establishing CG.

[Wildmieze]

Thank you Wingnutz for your your flattering words. 
Now it passed a few days and I have important news:
My Avanti was on Sunday on the runway and should really stand out for their first start. But that was duly wrong. Wrong C/G, too much wind and the flaps should not have been extended. But see for yourself in the video. Now I have received mail from your continent and now I know that the C/G should be 3-4cm forward of the wing edge. The next Sunday I'll test that again. Unfortunately, something broke. The front wing was touched, the nose gear off, the servo of the nose gear broken, the main landing gear loose and the air deflectors at the rear were broken. Everything is already repaired. On Sunday it will be 9 ° C at 7km / h wind. Perfect conditions! Just as ordered.
I will report.

Greetings!

Piaggio P-180 Avanti - first start attempt goes wrong - Erster Startversuch schlaegt fehl.

[sihinch]

Ah, what rotten luck. Sorry.

Good luck with the repairs, I'm sure the next attempt will be successful.

Thanks for sharing your CG learnings. I'm sure Bill will be grateful. What a great example of RC spirit.