EF-1 Racing---please read

cpaine · May 12, 2014, 03:18:12 PM

Hey Guys!

Sorry I have not been on here in a while. Looks like you fellas are all set (or close) to being ready for your nooner class race series. It sounds fun! And I would be lying if I said I wasn't a wee bit jealous!

However, for the guys that have EF-1s in your club, and are looking for the experience to try 3 pole racing, I am a little bit baffled as too why we cant get everyone together for a "Race" at the Orangeville field.
Ken Fluney has put together quite the effort to make this happen, as well as getting a date locked down very early this season, working with, and around your TEMAC schedule?!
So we were very excited that your members had put that date aside (may24) and were willing to drive a little bit, to come join us and learn a new experience, and make new friends.

But the latest news is, that your club has organized another nooner race for that weekend?? (I have checked TEMAC's calendar and don't see any events so I could be wrong)... it's a Tad upsetting as there is few of us on the EF-1 side, that have built, bought ARF's in the hopes of getting some racing going, but without the numbers... it just isn't possible.

I do realize that your club racing is your priority, Not the Orangeville racing. But I feel, that there is some guys in the TEMAC club, that appreciate the beauty of a EF-1 and want a new challenge. I also feel that there is others that could care less about anything outside of TEMAC. I hope that is not the case, and I also hope that we don't intimidate new blood and scare anyone away. Thank you for reading this... I might of opened up some flood gates but that is the beauty of a forum, to discuss and come with ideas/solutions.

Please respond with all positive/negative feed back you can send a PM as well if you privately want to say something.

Here is some pics of my projects this year... the Miss Dara is an Arf that i recovered to look like one he flew in the 70's

Cheers guys, thanks for listening.

P.S.-
I have also looked at the Aerial images of your field, and a 3 pole race can work... It would be just as fun with the nooners. Flying around yourself adds to the adrenaline and you can also fly a better course.
At first glance, you would pit where you park the cars (nothing changes) and walk out to the course. Nobody flys from the "fliteline"... these all just suggestions and I can even do up a drawing showing those possibilities to meet the maac requiremnts. (its what I do)

Sincerly
Cory Paine

sihinch · May 12, 2014, 03:57:32 PM

Cory

Appreciate the post and it's good to get conversation going.

Not sure the May 24th date has changed for TEMAC for our Piker racing. It is on our calendar that can be found on the www.temac.ca homepage. Jack, @Papa, who organizes our events and races is on vacation right now, but he would have the history of our schedule.

And yes, our Piker racing has begun. We had our first race at the end of April.

I'm sure we'll get up to Orangeville, but the date is a challenge. Would love to hear from others.

And yes, I do have (an un flown) EF1 plane! :-)

Not sure about having a 3 pole course at TEMAC. Sounds like changes to the field layout would be required and I'm not sure we'd be up for the disruption. Good to get opinions.....

Ededge2002 · May 12, 2014, 05:22:01 PM

I have watched the EF1 models show up at the TEMAC field and there performance to me is ho hum for the power input. Its like racing nascar. I am fairly confident that our 200W nooner class racers could give the +800W EF1's a surprising run. Whats more than this is that the models don't seem to fly all that well either! Several of the designs have had down right bad take off habits and the remainder are overweight for there size/performance.

EF1 Vs F5D

(3.5) pounds (1.59 kg) (2.2) pounds (1.0kg)

375sq" aprox 240sq"

850W estimated 1000W limiter

+- 110mph +-200mph

splinter groups about the US The rest of the world

aprox$600 Aprox $1000

I would consider attending to see the racing but doubt I would peruse the racing series personally. As for the intimidated comment lol yea that's it

battlestu · May 12, 2014, 07:36:01 PM

for me it's not so much about the speed of the plane.... it's all about the over all look. I know someone is working on an Endeavor and can't wait for the kit.

also the racing of any type is fun (nooner or EF-1)

Polecat · May 12, 2014, 09:00:25 PM

Quote from: Ededge2002 on May 12, 2014, 05:22:01 PM
I have watched the EF1 models show up at the TEMAC field and there performance to me is ho hum for the power input. Its like racing nascar. I am fairly confident that our 200W nooner class racers could give the +800W EF1's a surprising run. Whats more than this is that the models don't seem to fly all that well either! Several of the designs have had down right bad take off habits and the remainder are overweight for there size/performance.

EF1 Vs F5D

(3.5) pounds (1.59 kg) (2.2) pounds (1.0kg)
375sq" aprox 240sq"
850W estimated 1000W limiter
+- 110mph +-200mph
splinter groups about the US The rest of the world
aprox$600 Aprox $1000

I would consider attending to see the racing but doubt I would peruse the racing series personally. As for the intimidated comment lol yea that's it

ED
There was only one F 1 design that had bad take offs [Pogo], it was a beast but was a good flyer. All the other designs fly great and are stable. I have flown the Shoestring, Outrageous, Polecat, Nemie, Toni and the Dara, even my own designs the Midget Mustang and Denight Special. The low wing designs are a little trickie to taking off.
You can't compare an F5D to a balsa wood plastic covering airplane. The F5D is a high performance pylon racing airplane or for speed flying back and forth across the flying field. F 1 is for faster sport flying and some pylon racing, also looks like an Reno airplane and is pretty.
Come up to Orangeville sometime and bring your fast stuff to fly.

Ken

Frank v B · May 12, 2014, 11:18:48 PM

Ken,

Thanks for the invite. You gotta take Ed's F5D comments with a little salt (a pound or so). He is one of the Kilowatt Twins at TEMAC. The other one being Ben Feist. They yawn at anything subsonic and less than 500 watts per pound. Then there are the rest of us normal guys who want to fly faster than a well-chucked paper airplane.

Frank

Polecat · May 13, 2014, 08:27:21 AM

Quote from: Frank v B on May 12, 2014, 11:18:48 PM
Ken,

Thanks for the invite. You gotta take Ed's F5D comments with a little salt (a pound or so). He is one of the Kilowatt Twins at TEMAC. The other one being Ben Feist. They yawn at anything subsonic and less than 500 watts per pound. Then there are the rest of us normal guys who want to fly faster than a well-chucked paper airplane.

Frank

Frank Thanks for the tip, just getting to know Ed. We should rename him Kilowatt Ed. Ha Ha.

bfeist · May 13, 2014, 01:26:23 PM

Quote from: Frank v B on May 12, 2014, 11:18:48 PM
Ken,

Thanks for the invite. You gotta take Ed's F5D comments with a little salt (a pound or so). He is one of the Kilowatt Twins at TEMAC. The other one being Ben Feist. They yawn at anything subsonic and less than 500 watts per pound. Then there are the rest of us normal guys who want to fly faster than a well-chucked paper airplane.

Frank

Ya, while I was yawning, my Nooner piled into the ground during the last race. Thanks again for fixing it Frank!

cpaine · May 13, 2014, 05:47:59 PM

Now the ball is rolling.... Please don't your backs up, I'm not attacking anyone on here, or down playing the nooner race series. I think the 2 events could feed off each other. 2 classes of racing.
If things were to progress, I would build something to race in that class.

First of all... This is great. It shows that there is people that do want to race EF-1. A new racing series doesn't just happen, it takes a few dedicated individuals to stay consistent and draw in new people. I am reaching out to your club, for obvious reasons.

1. You're already racing (you have the bug)
2. Your field/club is ideal
3. Some already have EF-1 airplanes

I can also understand why the planes would appear "ho hum".... They were not designed nor intended to have break neck speeds. They were designed for the entry level racer. And I think they accomplished that with a beautiful "scalish" Formula1 racers.....
Size is deceiving when it comes to speed.

Second of all, my "intimidating" comment (Ededge2002) was not directed at your "speed" or your "skill", but more this style of racing and skill. To fly fast in a straight line on high speed passes is one thing, to fly fast around a race course (with you in the middle) is whole new animal, and can be intimidating. Believe me... I have raced Q500(nelson)----F1 (not EF-1)---Q40's (nelson)--- and FAI (F3D)--- all at a national level, and it was very intimidating! Gets the knees and thumbs shaking.....

I did a quick Drawing of the race course on your field. There is a big white square which I assume is a canopy (bigger then normal)... I estimated it to be around 15-20' sq.
I did it fairly quick at lunch on AutoCAD, so if it looks wrong tell me. Distance between pylon1 and pylon2/3 is 375'. Distance between 2 and 3 is 100'

Thanks again Guys!

sihinch · May 13, 2014, 07:08:45 PM

I agree that the best way to get a race series going is to ensure that enthusiastic people keep pushing it and don't give up. But, and this is more personal opinion than any club opinion, we have a race series that seems to be working great. And we can run it at our field with no changes to layout.

Also, most of us have to balance flying with other commitments. Therefore I will always prioritize the flying I want to do. EF1 flying for me is not at the top of my list right now.

I do have an EF1 plane and would be interested to try EF1 racing, but for me, as a first step, I just want to get used to flying the plane and then Imwould look to travel to see a course/race.

Personally I think it's a bit early for TEMAC to be thinking about a course. We are just getting people flying EF1 planes and right now people within the club members aren't asking us for a TEMAC EF1 race. That day may come....

We have over 100 members and whilst we always try to cater for all interests and skills and hopes, we do have to think about all the members and that usually means the majority membership.

Our race series has about 20 particants which is around 20% of flying members. That I know of, we have about half a dozen members with EF1 planes.

I think the best plan for now is for TEMAC people to visit Ken in Orangeville. But we need a date that works for the majority.

Again, this post is mostly personal opinion, not official TEMAC position.

Ededge2002 · May 13, 2014, 07:21:50 PM

the canopy is 10x10.... Else we all drive very large cars

There is NO possibility that the circuit could be the required 275' from the parking area and still be on our field. Also there is a major road immediately north of the field this would put the pylon 1 turn near the road and a large set of hydro lines. Setting up pylons over an area that the club just installed a geotex runway on is also a less than ideal situation. The Orangville club is small and there number of races per season is even less. As I understand the club used to be much more active that is until the pylons and the corn changed it. I do not speak for the club but personally I don't see the need to join EF1. Our little racers are cheaper, fly as well if not better than most ive seen and are tough because of there light weight. Many if not all planes had mishaps last season and to my knowledge all completed the season. EF1 could only dream of the excitement and involvement of TEMAC. Adding a second series to the club events would occupy a lot of additional time that other non racers would likely be using the field. TEMAC is a busy place. Daily there are a lot of people out flying and the variety is one of the reasons I joined along with the open friendly atmosphere. I feel this addition could divide and splinter the club and I have no desire to do that. Thanks for your input

Polecat · May 13, 2014, 09:32:01 PM

Ed is right sometimes, Our club is small, only 12 member for the past 4 years, we are old grey haired men and the club is not active, you can go flying and be the only one at the field. Also I am the only one flying electric and pylon now.
The corn really slow things down last year and we only had one E F 1 practice, that was it.
Our club raced Quickie 500 for 24 years, stopped in 2004, we raced club and Canadian 500. Our races where ran to the MAAC pylon rules and 3-4 races a year, running 5 rounds of racing at each contest.
As for E F 1, there is 13 guys who have planes now, 9 who have never raced before, so we are having practices, before any racing starts. I don't want to see guys having mishaps. E F 1 will be run to 4-5 rounds NMPRA rules and to MAAC Pylon Safety guidelines.
The problem I have is trying to get 3 dates to have F 1 because of all the racing dates Temac has, so Temac guys and other can attend. I understand Temac guys want to race at there club, I would too.
Can the Nooner racing not be run to more rounds, race for maybe 3hrs. and have 4-5 race dates? Just asking, that would free up a couple of date for F 1.
Also Nooner racing is a good club program and I think E F 1 can feed off it.
As Simon said, go up to Orangeville and have fun practicing pylon.

sihinch · May 13, 2014, 10:59:05 PM

Ken

We try to keep the duration of racing to a minimum so as not to disrupt the non-racing flying. At a weekend we often get 30-40 people wanting to fly , not all of whom fly in the Piker class. We already take up to 90 minutes out of a weekend for the non-racing members.

And the Piker racing was such a success for us last year that our racers asked for more. So I don't think we want to reduce the number of races, either.

I'm beginning to feel like others are trying to force their desires on us. Just saying.......

battlestu · May 14, 2014, 09:49:24 AM

Couldn't MAAC help with this? have a big race once (or twice) a year and have EF-1 pilots come together for all over our zone and race? Almost like what the AMA does in Muncie?

bfeist · May 14, 2014, 10:01:00 AM

I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

@cpaine , I think you've found yourself in the middle of a long conversation that's been happening at TEMAC for the past few seasons. Jack (@Papa) has put in a big effort to make the nooner series a success. The topic of other classes of racing has come up before. At one point, we were considering an entry level race series (kind of a pre-nooner series) to encourage new racers to get into it (the nooners turned out to be a lot faster than we first intended when Rob Pike created the Piker class--lithiums, brushless make everything faster) but we all decided that starting a new race series would dilute the current nooner class participation too much, and hog the field too much.

That said, EF1 has intrigued many members over the years. I think Greg has even visited Orangeville a few times to check it out. Rather than trying to establish a TEMAC EF1 series, I would be interested in seeing TEMAC host an EF1 race that's part of another club's racing season--a kind of expo event. Does EF1 hold races at different fields as part of the season (like Formula 1 car racing)? Just a thought. I'm not a member of the Board or anything.

Ben