Schneider Trophy Build, Fly, Inspire

[piker]

There has been much talk about the great Schneider Trophy racing series of 1913 to 1931, in recent weeks, as we celebrate the 100th anniversary of the first race in 1913.  Here's a bit from Wikipedia that provides the basic history:

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"The Coupe d'Aviation Maritime Jacques Schneider (commonly called the Schneider Trophy, or prize or cup) was a prize competition for seaplanes. Announced by Jacques Schneider, a financier, balloonist and aircraft enthusiast, in 1911, it offered a prize of roughly £1,000. The race was held eleven times between 1913 and 1931. It was meant to encourage technical advances in civil aviation but became a contest for pure speed with laps over a triangular course (initially 280 km, later 350 km). The races were very popular and some attracted crowds of over 200,000 spectators. Since 1977 the trophy has been on display at the Science Museum in London.
If an aero club won three races in five years, they would retain the cup and the winning pilot would receive 75,000 francs. Each race was hosted by the previous winning country. The races were supervised by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale and the aero club in the hosting country. Each club could enter up to three competitors with an equal number of alternates.

The race was significant in advancing aeroplane design, particularly in the fields of aerodynamics and engine design, and would show its results in the best fighters of WW2. The streamlined shape and the low drag, liquid-cooled engine pioneered by Schneider Trophy designs are obvious in the British Supermarine Spitfire, the American P-51 Mustang, and the Italian Macchi C.202 Folgore."


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For those of us who appreciate the finer things in life... that being seaplanes  ... this racing series was a significant event in aviation history as it created an atmosphere, in the age of great excitement in early aircraft development, of international competition and of pushing the technological development of aerodynamics, hydrodynamics, structural design, and engine technology.  In my opinion, the Schneider competitors were pushing the limits even further than the land based racers of the time, because they also had to solve challenges with buoyancy, hydroplaning, huge torque effects on a floating craft, and adverse weather conditions.  Some very interesting, and beautiful designs and concepts came out of these races for national bragging rights.

In this thread, I will provide more of a look at the history of the Schneider racing series with a look at some of the exciting aircraft that were developed over the years.  I will also offer my suggestions for a TEMAC Schneider Trophy float flying event series, and encourage a common build theme to get everyone involved and working toward some exciting float flying get togethers.  We will have lots of opportunity for float flying this summer, and summers to follow, so if you have an interest in flying from water, you now have the opportunity to enjoy a beautiful and exciting aspect of our hobby.

Of course, I encourage participation in this thread to help get the excitement building.  I will start with some links to other building threads in our message board, and an introduction to a common building theme that we started in Kingston a few years ago, and that I think we can revitalize and restart now that we have more float flying opportunities.

So, if this sounds interesting, keep in touch, provide your thoughts and desires, and let's make this event / build theme as exciting as it was in the golden age of aviation.

Robert

[piker]

I'll cut and paste a post that I made in the "Seaplane General" thread when we started talking about restarting the Schneider theme a few weeks ago.  It's a direct copy, so if you read it in the other thread, you already know what it's about.


----------------------------
Several years ago, while a small group of electric flyers, including Martin Irvine, and Keith Shaw, hung out at my family cottage, the beautifully calm, inspiriing night before the Kingston Electric Fun Fly, we started planning an annual float flying event inspired by the Schneider Trophy race to be held on the Saturday evening of the Kingston fun fly.  Let me cut and paste my intro posts for the event that I made on the EMFSO Messgae Board in 2005:

******
"It all started over beers at the Pike's cottage after the Kingston Electric Fun Fly.

It's been a bit of a tradition for a few of us to attempt float flying on the Friday and Saturday evenings on the weekend of the Kingston event.  This past summer the weather finally cooperated and it was calm and beautiful.  We did do some very nice float flying.

Well, this seemed to have inspired the gang, so after dark, with beer in hand, the likes of Louis Dionne (from Ottawa), Martin Irvine, Keith Shaw, and whoever else was around started hatching a plan to build similar sized Schneider Trophy racers and have a mock race (more like a "parade" as Keith puts it) at the cottage next year.

I, of course, was all for the idea, but suggested to Martin that it would be great if we could find a pond or small lake closer to the Kingston R/C field so more people could come by and participate and/or watch.

Martin called me last week to say that he knows a guy who has a cottage about 10 to 15 minutes north of the flying club.  He is more than willing to have a bunch of us come by on the Saturday evening next year for some float flying.

SO, that's the plan.  So far we have 9 people planning to build Schneider racers.  It would be very cool if some more of you wanted to join in too.

Heck, even if you don't float fly very often (I don't very much either), the Schneider racers are very cool subjects that would fly from land as well.  I had a plan to permanently mount floats on my Cub and have plug in wheels for land use.  The same could be done with a float equipped racer, I suppose.

Anyway, the rules are very loose.  The bottom line is for people to build what they like.  The guys mentioned approx. 300 watts, approx. 350 sq/in. wing area, and 1/8 or 1/7 scale.  The idea is to keep the model small enough for a fairly quick
build.

We'd like to see reasonably scale lines and colouring, but super detail is not necessary.

Let me know what you think?  It'll be a fun project.

If we get enough people float flying, maybe we can have some more casual get togethers around the T.O. area."
******

Well, several people starting building planes.  Most of you know about Ben's Curtis Racer.  Some have even seen Glenns Supermarine S4, which is flying so well now, and my Macchi M-33, which is about to start flying really well  .  Martin also has a beautiful Macchi MC72 that apparenly flies nicely, but I haven't seen it fly yet.

The problem has been the fact that the Kingston event is only one opportunity per year to float fly for many people and often the weather is unfavourable and we're usualy pretty tired after the Saturday of flying at the field.  Michael and I spoke to Martin recently and told him to expect to do float flying this year as there's a renewed enthusiasm from the Toronto gang.

Anyway, I think that with our greater float flying activity within TEMAC we could get enough people interested to pull this off this time... perhaps with a little teamwork toward getting people set-up with planes.  I'll put some thought into the easiest, and most practical way to get a Schneider racer and participate.  Also, perhaps with some Schneider inspired events on the day, we can bring an element of fun and excitment that'll make everyone want to be a part of it.  I already have some ideas.

I'll leave this post with a You Tube vid of a pretty sweet looking MC72 created from a Formosa kit.  We know that the Formosa can make a fun float plane.  With a little slicing and painting you can make a reasonable copy of any of the Supermarine enties or the Macchi float planes.  I'll probably try that myself.

Macchi MC-72 - Radio controlled Schneider Cup Racer

[piker]

Just to bring everything nicely together, here's a couple of links to Schneider racers being built within our TEMAC family:

Bill Quantock's Dad's Macchi M5/7

http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,3837.0.html


Michael Rogozinsky's Macchi MC72 build:

http://temac.ca/smf/index.php/topic,3850.0.html

[piker]

And from the recent TEMAC Pilots Meeting, some pictures of our racers from past years.  They all need a little TLC to bring them back to showroom quality, but I'm sure you'll agree that they are some very cool examples.

Here you will see:

Ben Feist's Curtis RC3-2
Glenn Nikolaiko's Supermarine S4
Robert Pike's Macchi M-33

http://temac.ca/?p=1616

[sihinch]

Can I do a Formosa float plane in Schneider trophy colours, to qualify?

[piker]

Of course!  And the best part about this "event" is the only requirement for qualification is a desire to participate 

BTW, I'm planning to "kit bash" a Formosa into a "looks kinda like" Schneider racer.  I'm thinking a Macchi M-67

[wollins]

I'll cut and paste a post that I made in the "Seaplane General" thread when we started talking about restarting the Schneider theme a few weeks ago.  It's a direct copy, so if you read it in the other thread, you already know what it's about.


----------------------------
Several years ago, while a small group of electric flyers, including Martin Irvine, and Keith Shaw, hung out at my family cottage, the beautifully calm, inspiriing night before the Kingston Electric Fun Fly, we started planning an annual float flying event inspired by the Schneider Trophy race to be held on the Saturday evening of the Kingston fun fly.  Let me cut and paste my intro posts for the event that I made on the EMFSO Messgae Board in 2005:

******
"It all started over beers at the Pike's cottage after the Kingston Electric Fun Fly.

It's been a bit of a tradition for a few of us to attempt float flying on the Friday and Saturday evenings on the weekend of the Kingston event.  This past summer the weather finally cooperated and it was calm and beautiful.  We did do some very nice float flying.

Well, this seemed to have inspired the gang, so after dark, with beer in hand, the likes of Louis Dionne (from Ottawa), Martin Irvine, Keith Shaw, and whoever else was around started hatching a plan to build similar sized Schneider Trophy racers and have a mock race (more like a "parade" as Keith puts it) at the cottage next year.

I, of course, was all for the idea, but suggested to Martin that it would be great if we could find a pond or small lake closer to the Kingston R/C field so more people could come by and participate and/or watch.

Martin called me last week to say that he knows a guy who has a cottage about 10 to 15 minutes north of the flying club.  He is more than willing to have a bunch of us come by on the Saturday evening next year for some float flying.

SO, that's the plan.  So far we have 9 people planning to build Schneider racers.  It would be very cool if some more of you wanted to join in too.

Heck, even if you don't float fly very often (I don't very much either), the Schneider racers are very cool subjects that would fly from land as well.  I had a plan to permanently mount floats on my Cub and have plug in wheels for land use.  The same could be done with a float equipped racer, I suppose.

Anyway, the rules are very loose.  The bottom line is for people to build what they like.  The guys mentioned approx. 300 watts, approx. 350 sq/in. wing area, and 1/8 or 1/7 scale.  The idea is to keep the model small enough for a fairly quick
build.

We'd like to see reasonably scale lines and colouring, but super detail is not necessary.

Let me know what you think?  It'll be a fun project.

If we get enough people float flying, maybe we can have some more casual get togethers around the T.O. area."
******

Well, several people starting building planes.  Most of you know about Ben's Curtis Racer.  Some have even seen Glenns Supermarine S4, which is flying so well now, and my Macchi M-33, which is about to start flying really well  .  Martin also has a beautiful Macchi MC72 that apparenly flies nicely, but I haven't seen it fly yet.

The problem has been the fact that the Kingston event is only one opportunity per year to float fly for many people and often the weather is unfavourable and we're usualy pretty tired after the Saturday of flying at the field.  Michael and I spoke to Martin recently and told him to expect to do float flying this year as there's a renewed enthusiasm from the Toronto gang.

Anyway, I think that with our greater float flying activity within TEMAC we could get enough people interested to pull this off this time... perhaps with a little teamwork toward getting people set-up with planes.  I'll put some thought into the easiest, and most practical way to get a Schneider racer and participate.  Also, perhaps with some Schneider inspired events on the day, we can bring an element of fun and excitment that'll make everyone want to be a part of it.  I already have some ideas.

I'll leave this post with a You Tube vid of a pretty sweet looking MC72 created from a Formosa kit.  We know that the Formosa can make a fun float plane.  With a little slicing and painting you can make a reasonable copy of any of the Supermarine enties or the Macchi float planes.  I'll probably try that myself.

Macchi MC-72 - Radio controlled Schneider Cup Racer

Rob, WHAT THE H*%L IS THE MATTER WITH YOU???!!          After seeing that video of the lowly Formosa turned MC72 I am now seriously thinking of trying to do this myself! (And I thought I was done with Formosas!)

You've seen how many models in my workshop that I haven't even started yet (that I want to get ready for the Summer) and now you go and do this! DAMN!   

Colin

[wollins]

BTW, thanks for the loan of the files ... they're working great.

Colin

[sihinch]

Phew - glad about the lookalike formosa racer.  I was thinking S6

[piker]

Glad to help out, guys   

So, I was looking for reference for building a schneider racer, or kit bashing a Formosa and checked out Bob Banka's plan service:

http://www.bobsairdoc.com/

This is a fantastic resource for all things scale, with a HUGE list of photopaks available as well as three views.  I was pleased to find that he has a whole section of three views of Schneider trophy racers.  Here's the list, which I bet contains almost every plane ever built, or even planned for the Schneider series.  I know most of them never competed:

Schneider Cup

Aviatik PFEIL biplane 1914

Avro 539/1 biplane 1919

Bernard HV-40 monopln 1929-31
HV-41 monoplane 1929-31
HV-42 monoplane 1931
HV-120 monoplane 1929-31
HV-220 monoplane 1931

Blackburn Pellet bipe 1923

Blanchard C-1 monopln 1923

Borel monoplane 1913

Brequet H-1 biplane 1913

C.A.M.S. 36 #11 bipe 1922
36 #12 biplane 1922
36 bis #10 bipe 1923
38 #9 biplane 1923

Curtiss Triad biplane 1914
CR-3 #3 biplane 1923
CR-3 #4 biplane 1923
CR-3 #8 biplane 1924
R2C-2 #6 biplane 1924
R3C-2 #2 biplane 1925
R3C-2 #3 biplane 1925
F6C-3 biplane 1926
R3C-2 #6 biplane 1926
R3C-3 #2 biplane 1926
R3C-4 #4 biplane 1926

Deperdussin #19 monopl 1913
#4 monoplane 1914

Dewoitine 410 monopln 1931

Dornier 1931 project 1931

Fairey IIIC #1 biplane 1919

F.B.A. #7 biplane 1914

Fiat C-29 monoplane 1928

Gloster II #1 biplane 1924
IIIa #4/5 biplane 1925
IIIa #5 biplane 1925
IVa biplane 1927
IVb biplane 1927
VI N249 monoplane 1929
VI N250 monoplane 1929

Latham No. 1 biplane 1923

Macchi M-12 biplane 1920
M-18 biplane 1921
M-19 biplane 1921
M-7 bis #1 bipe 1921
M-7 #14 biplane 1921
M-7 #10 biplane 1922
M-17 #9 biplane 1922
MC-33 #6 monoplne 1925
MC-33 #7 monoplne 1925
MC-39 #1 monoplne 1926
MC-39 #3 monoplne 1926
MC-39 #5 monoplne 1926
MC-52 #2 monoplne 1927
MC-52 #5 monoplne 1927
MC-52R #4 monopln 1929
MC-67 #7 monoplne 1929
MC-67 #10 monopln 1929
MC-72 mono plane 1931-4

Mercury monoplane 1929

Morane Saulnier #1 mono 1913
Saulnier monoplne 1914

N.A.F.
Curtiss TR-3A #5 1923

Navy Wright NW-2 #5 1923
Wright F2W-2 #7 1924

Nieuport V G #6 monopl 1913
VI H #1 monoplane 1914
VI H #5 monoplane 1913
VI H #5 monoplane 1914
VI H #6 monoplane 1914
29G biplane 1919
29 SHV #2 biplane 1919
29 SHV #5 biplane 1921
450/650 monoplane 1929-31

Piaggio Pc-3 monoplane 1924
Pc-7 monopln #076 1929

Savio S-13 #7 biplane 1919
S-12 bis #7 bipe 1920
S-19 biplane 1920
S-21 biplane 1921
S-22 biplane 1921
S-50 MVT biplane 1922
S-51 #8 biplane 1922
S-65 monoplane 1929

Short Crusader monopln 1927

Sopwith Tabloid #3 1914
Schneider biplane 1919

S.P.A.D. S-20 bis bipe 1919

Supermarine
Sea Lion I #5 1919
Sea Lion II #14 1922
Sea Lion III #7 1923
S-4 #4 monoplane 1925
S-5 #6 monoplane 1927
S-5 #4 monoplane 1927
S-5 #5 monoplane 1929
S-6 #2 monoplane 1929
S-6 #8 monoplane 1929
S-6A #4 monoplane 1931
S-6B #1 monoplane 1931
S-6B #7 monoplane 1931

I will likely order a few sets of three views at some point, so if anyone is interested in getting something, let's do a group order.

Now, I believe we had a loose rule, when we planned the Kingston Schneider event, that the aircraft of choice had to have been entered in a race.  I think we should get rid of that rule and only require some sort of proof that the subject was at least intended for a Schneider Trophy race.  That way we have more opportunity for plane choices.

So I started to search some of the names on the list and found some pictures for further inspiration.  I stuck to the later years and monoplanes so they can act as Formosa modification inspiration.  Of course there are a lot of early years that would probably be great subjects for depron builds   

Now I'm leaning toward the Bernard HV-120 for a Formosa Mod.  Very cool.  It's surprising how many of these look so much like Formosa's on floats... nudge...nudge...

Note the Piaggio Pc-7 at the end.  I know Ken Wilton started to experiment with this concept. 

[Wingnutz]

Sounds like it should be great fun! I have to echo Colin's frustration about bumping my present build queue to accommodate a Schneider Racer build.
I'll have something ready.
One of the Schneider events or even just a fun fly with no competition should be at ROGO even though the grass would hardly be "scale"...Watching models of plane this sexy has to seduce some of the lurkers into becoming a Speed Seeker! (book about early racing planes which I bought and never got to read...my dad won't give it back!)
I did download the sim for the Piaggio P7 onto my RealFlight simulator a couple of months ago..it flys really well...wish I could build a P7 model that'd perform that well! What a fascinating aircraft! Seeing photos or the sim always makes me think it's going to sink!

[piker]

Well, BILL!  You, and everyone else, have only yourself to blame for this 

I quote:  "Guys,
Although April 16 is a bit early, 2013 is the 100th anniversary of the first Schneider Cup Race. Rob and other seaplane enthusiasts, we should have a Schneider Cup Commemorative Float Fly at sometime this season! If we can do this, please make the date later in the season as right now, the closest model I have to a Schneider Cup racer is an Apprentice on floats! Will help with organization if anyone wants to schedule a date?"

What do they say?... be careful what you ask for?

I too now have to fit into my full build schedule a Formosa Schneider kit bash, a refurbish of my Macchi M-33, and a scratch built, foam and glass, Schneider something.   

Which leads me to my next post...

[wollins]

I too now have to fit into my full build schedule a Formosa Schneider kit bash, a refurbish of my Macchi M-33, and a scratch built, foam and glass, Schneider something.   

Lord ... when does it end? 

Colin

[piker]

O.K.  Now that we've had an introduction to the Schneider Trophy history and a look as some of the WAY cool planes from that time in our aviation history, let start thinking about what we can aim for as a group to maximize the awesomeness of our float flying outings.

But first, let's discuss what makes float flying so appealing to many of us...

For me, it goes back to those lazy summer days at the cottage or on a beach with the gentle, lapping, water, sliding along the sand.  As a kid, I was always drawn to sending things afloat on the calm water and watching them drift along the surface with no effort at all.  As I got older, I became interest in model planes and started building chuck gliders out of solid balsa.  While out for a canoe ride with my father and older brother, I would day dream about building a chuck glider with a small set of floats that I could launch and have land on the calm water surface.  Of course, as soon as I started building larger, RC models, getting a plane to fly from water was a passion of mine.  It wasn't until 11 years later, that I finally had my first RC flight from floats with an electric model.  It was very exciting.  My main interest has been flying from water ever since.

So what is it that I find so appealing about flying from water?  Well, it's hard to define just one thing, so why don't I list some of the nice things about seaplane flying.

-The lakeside is one of the nicest environments in which to spend time and enjoy our hobby.
-The blend of bouyancy, hydroplaning, and flying is a beautiful thing.
-The landing surface is always level.
-There's a certain excitment from the vulnerability of releasing a model out into the water.
-Float planes and flying boats are interesting and graceful subjects for modelling.
-There's a rich and colourful history in seaplane aviation, from Scneider racing, to Pan-Am Clippers, to Canadian Bush planes to WWII, etc.
-Lifting off from water and touching down on water is a beautiful sight to behold.
-Rough landing or crashing into the water rarely leads to serious damage and usually results in no damage at all.

There is just nothing like a perfect landing on a glass calm lake, with the reflection of the plane in the water.  Those who have flown from water are usually hooked and can't wait to get out to do it again.

So here are some pictures from Frenchman's Bay float flying get togethers in the past:

[Wingnutz]

Wow!
All that calm water looks ...looks ...floatflyable! Yeah, I know I invited build queue chaos...so many nifty models...so little time!