Piker Class Team Racing

[Papa]

I would like to start some discussion on the fine tuning of the TEMAC Team Racing, Piker Class BL.
Here are some thoughts and I would appreciate your comments.

Observers:
It is obvious that we need an observer for each pilot.
The models are too fast for a flag man to be effective and reporting cuts may be problematic for the same reason.
We need a lap counters to create lap charts.

Speed:
Estimating a turn of 150ft at each end and using Ed's recorded speed of 1:22 min. for the race then Ed's speed was 97.75 Mph.

2S Battery or entry level class:
I saw Ken's model on two cells and it was marginally slower than the three cell version. I doubt that this combination would be suitable as an entry level class. We would have to come up with a much less powerful combination. I'm open to suggestions. We need something with a top speed around 60Mph.
My personal feeling is an entry level will pull entries from the full class. The secret to exciting racing is in numbers. Fewer entries are boring and will quickly loose interest.
I would rather have novice class using the standard spec model and restrict it as to who can run it and for how long they can run in it. If we went this route I would expect the teams to be responsible for the novices and use the class as a farm team for the main team.

Points System:
I'm happy with the points system as all teams are very close as are the pilots who competed.

Jack.

[bfeist]

2S is an interesting idea. I might just try that for mine

For a 60mph plane, maybe a stryker class? A delta foamie like a stryker or my projeti (which isn't made anymore I believe) is a great introductory plane into higher speed flight. It slows down really well and doesn't stall due to the delta wing. It's also Elevon controls, so similar to a pylon racer with no rudder. Just a suggestion.

In the 90s era Piker class races, each pilot had an observer and a flag man. I wasn't there for the race yesterday. Is this already the same setup for the Nooners?

Ben

[sihinch]

I agree that a race spotter per pilot is needed, to record position.

Not sure about a flag man, for the corners. I appreciate it relies on trust, but I like the honour system.

The points system is awesome.

I drew against Ed and Pike in my heat. I'd be interested to know what the pilot-heat selection system is. I don't want to always have them in the heats! Next time I may meet them in the final!!

I like the thought of entry level racing. And an off the shelf PnP or BnF model would be ideal. Not a Nooner. We may need to wait until next year though.

It was an awesome first race, Jack. I loved it.

[thehaze]

I still think that using park zone warbirds would be the best entry level model. Lots of people have them,  especially pilots who have graduated from a trainer. It might be worth a trial.

As  for the nooners, I didn't see the race,  but what about making the distance between the pylons greater? The speed would stay the same but it would make the race longer, and give the pilots more time to recover after the turns.

[Ededge2002]

I agree that a spotter per pilot might be a good idea.  As a "judge of fact" for the first race to count laps of the first place finisher it was a challenge to keep eyes on position of even just one place.

The top four overall finishers without trying to sound boastful are experienced go fast flyers. One of which only flew his plane a handful of times prior to racing it. I personally put in a lot of time flying my plane to try to do well against some very capable competition. I feel that now that the others have one race under there belt they might know just what to do to make themselves more competitive and practice if they wanted.  It did not seem to me that my plane was markedly faster than the other planes I just took a shorter circuit.  As this is a for fun class I have and will continue to offer any assistance to the other racers(unless there name is Glen,  Robert or Frank). I hope the racers that finished lower in the standings do not get discouraged. The reason I'm in this is to push myself and try to improve and hope that others will challenge.

I do have one question in regard to the points system though. I searched and could not find the breakdown for points awarded. Please don't think I'm "complaining" but I don't understand how a first in the heat race followed by a first in the final only resulted in a two point lead. I'm sure once I find the breakdown it will be clear.

Thanks

[piker]

I think the scoring system is excellent.  I like how it rewards participation toward the team score.  i know those who can't make it have very good reasons, but it's nice to recognize the efforts of those who are able to come out and get the heart hate elevated.

I know Jack knows the system we used in the past, that worked very well... I dare say "flawlessly" with planes at these speeds.  The only down side is it required a volunteer spotter for each pilot (shouldn't be a problem with the team scenario) and a flagman per plane.  Each flagman was responsible for only one plane and simply dropped a coloured flag at the plane passed the far pylon (the flagman's near pylon).  The Pilot's caller would shout the pilots name or designated colour at the plane passed the lap count line and the race marshal would put a check on the box beside that name.  The first pilot with all 10 boxes filled was the winner. 

For an intermediate level racer, may I suggest the Nooner?      Remember, the Nooner was designed for the "sport" class of pylon racing.  It was never meant to be raced at the speeds we're flying them now.  Yes, I agree that they are good for the racing we're doing, but they're even better as a race trainer on more modest power systems.  The speeds would be downright boring for the hot shots, but quite exciting for the average pilots.  They used to fly on Speed 400 motors on 7 cells at about 10A.  That's about the same as a two cell packs now, but we would need to limit to only 10A max somehow.  For that I suggest each pilot, at the beginning of the race day, be required to bring their plane to registration and demonstrate the max current draw to the contest director.  It would only take a few second for each plane , and would be the responsibility of the pilot to set-up the quick demonstration.  With proof of current draw under 10A the pilot is registered.  Of course, the honour system would need to be in effect as a full pack need to be used, and it's assumed nothing is changed after registration.  Someone cheating would be quite apparent during the race as with this system, the planes should be very well matched.

Robert

[sihinch]

Points system from the TEMAC Race Series section of the main homepage (not the forum):


Individual 1st Place   2nd Place   3rd Place   4th Place   DNF
Race (heat)   5 pts.   4 pts.   3 pts.   2 pts.   1 pt.
B Main (semi)   7 pts   6 pts   5 pts   4 pts   3 pts
A Main (final)   10 pts   9 pts   8pts   7 pts   5 pts

[Papa]

Ken Coleman I don't think uses the forum very much so here are his comments.  Jack.

Thanks Jack and Simon for the fine pylons and an exciting first race! I learned a lot from this experience and have these suggestions for future races.

1. All pilots should have a spotter/lap counter.

2  I think we should reinstate the Formosa lap count/scoring program.

3. White is a bad colour for visibility in most conditions – also Monocote has a high reflectivity which makes it invisible at certain angles. Ultracote is less reflective. Looks like

    yellow, orange, red are the most visible colours!

4. Racing before 2pm presents a sun hazard. [don't ask me how I know]

5. A 2-cell class would give some incentive to potential racers. I have tested the 2-cell format and even though it is about the same speed as the Formosa, it is markedly more manageable

    than the 3-cell Nooner. Might be a plan to ask the pilots to try it and give an opinion?

6. Congratulations Ed for the best race flying we have ever seen and for setting the benchmark for aspiring winners! Also thanks for your help and advice trimming my plane!!!

Lastly, I am really upset with myself for ending up the victim of my own prediction. My sincere apologies for tainting the first race with a close call – it will not happen again as I intend to follow my recommendations backed by hours of practise before next race.

Thanks team for your ear! I'd love to hear your thoughts!

[Papa]

Just to comment on Mikes suggestion for entry level and really on all expansion of the racing. We have to bear in mind how much appeal this has for the club membership as a whole. Any "special" event cuts into the regular activities at the field. Most seem willing to accept some displacement but the racing with more than one class would evolve into a Mini Fun Fly time frame and we may have to look at curtailing some of the others.

If we did go with a slower entry level such as war birds I would want each "Senior" racing team to form a "Junior" racing team and support it with training, expertise and encouragement. It would also be a super pool of spotters etc. We would need to develop a method of judging when a "junior" was ready to fly "senior".

When you have an entry level class two things become apparent very quickly. Some participants want to move up and out of the class very quickly and the second is that many want to stay having found their level of comfort. There is not a lot you can do in either case but it can result in an un-even performance range and that can frustrate the comfortable pilots.

One other point, we have just had one race and I won't make major changes until we have a few more under our collective belts. The spotter thing we have to change immediately and I will think long and hard on the course length increase for next race. Some of you still building may want to take note of Ken's comments regarding colour.

My personal observation, based on many years in auto racing officiating, is that this was one of the best start ups I have ever seen. The patience and cooperation was second to none. We really have a good thing going here let's not screw it up by changing too much too quickly
Jack.

[Michael]

I agree with Simon regarding "entry level" racing.

I strongly suggest any stock Parkzone warbird, PNP or BNF.

They all use similar power systems, are about the same size and weight, are all available at local hobby shops, and parts are readily available.

They are flown by beginners to experts.
They are not too fast.

All things considered, they are cheaper than a Nooner, can be used for regular sport flying, and can be used on Warbirds day.

I also agree with waiting for next year.

[Frank v B]

Guys,

The first race is done.  A copy of my notes to Jack after the race.

- great to have four planes in the air in all 3 races.  More would be tough, fewer would be boring.
- surprising but avoiding collisions is not a focus.  Racing your own race is fine.  Lots of sky in 3 dimensions.
- they are quick planes!!!- any faster would be scary and dangerous.  The 18 amp max was perfect but for advanced flyers.
- this was my first pylon race ever, believe it or not.
- fun bunch of guys.

A few extra observations:
1) I was a second place spotter in the second race.  Impossible because you lose track of 1,3 and 4.  If someone passes, you don't know who it is and you lose second place plane.  The only solution is a lap counter for each racer.  That would have solved the Piker/Glenn lap issue as well.
2) I feel every pilot should have a mandatory trim flight before the racing starts.  Ken Coleman, I think, entered the race cold.  So did Bobby.  Bobby was smart to pull out and just fly around the course.
3) Thanks to Simon for the instant OK to letting me launch for Bobby who did not feel comfortable throwing and flying.  Much appreciated and it did not cost anyone a place.

A lot of fun but very nerve wracking.  These planes are not just a Sunday afternoon walk in the park.  My other Nooner (10 years old) has 250 watts going through it versus the 200 watts for Temac racing

Who is this Ed guy??  Which planet did he come from?

Frank

[sihinch]

This is Ed's day job......

[piker]

These planes are not just a Sunday afternoon walk in the park.  My other Nooner (10 years old) has 250 watts going through it versus the 200 watts for Temac racing

Frank

This was my point earlier.  I think you guys are scaring any potential new participants away with the talk (and demonstration) of the speed of the Nooners.  I cautioned at the beginning that putting 200+ watts through these planes was going to make them very fast.  It's not the fault of the planes.  These planes were designed as entry level pylon racers to be raced much slower than the "open" class at the time.  The open class racers were more the size of Ed's Pyro.  The Nooners are HUGE compared to that plane, but if you pack enough power into them, they'll go pretty quick.

If you fly your Nooner around at half (or less) power, its actually a very sedate, yet predictable flying plane.  This is the message we need to share in order to encourage more people to participate.  I know this is the message that Ed tries to convey when he demonstrates the low speed, and even glide, capabilities of his Nooner.

People should be encouraged to get a Nooner, fly it as a fun sport plane until the plane starts to feel comfortable and even slow, then start upping the speed to start racing when they feel comfortable.

Robert

[sihinch]

Like I have said before, the Nooner is the nicest flying plane I have ever flown. Predictable. Direct control. Responsive.

[sihinch]

Just getting the creative juices flowing in my brain and I wondered......

Are there any other designs available for the Piker class speed 400 pylon race series?